The Swedes are here

rrlund

Well-known Member
They've seen a few deer,Nickolas got a spike day before yesterday.

We all sat up and talked til about 11:30 last night. My son is right,the US is so far behind.

First off,they live in the same latitude as Anchorage Alaska just for reference. Thogar told me all about his heating and water heating system. You'd be slapping yourself in the forhead if you heard him talk about it. First off,he has solar panels on his roof. Not to foolishly try to use some stupid pie in the sky Star Wars technology to generate electricity,which you can't store,but to heat water,which you CAN store. Duh huh?

He has 2 400 gallon insulated storage tanks. He says that when water reaches a certain temperature,it becomes what he calls "dead water". Said that means it won't rust or corrode metal,so you don't need galvanized,glass lined or stainless. He has 7 meters (yea,everything was described in metric) of coiled copper in one tank from the solar panels. He runs an antifreeze in those lines. Says they reach temps as high as 175 degrees C,or somewhere around 350F. He has coils in there too for his domestic water. He says that system is all he uses for hot water and for whatever heat he needs in the house from April through September.

Now,he also has that small wood gassification boiler to heat the water when it's too dark and cold for the solar. He said this time of year,he loads it up,and that's not saying much as small as it is,and lights it about every other day. He just lets it burn itself out and has enough hot water for the household use and to heat the house. Said it takes about 4 hours after he lights it for the gassification to start and the water to heat,but that it doesn't matter because the water is still warm enough to keep the house warm anyway. Later on when it's dark most of the time,and the outside temp averages about -20C,he burns it all the time,only uses birch because that's all that grows up there. We calculated his usage to be less than 2 cords a year! Says that boiler is 87-92% efficient. The stove pipe stays at about 50C,or 105F,about the temp of the water in a hot tub. No smoke,no creasote,about half a 12 ounce can of light fly ash a week. He has to put just a few sticks of wood in about every 12 hours.

He said he'd send me all the information he could find on those systems when he gets home.

Are you feeling foolish yet for cutting so much wood and not using solar to heat water? I sure am!
 

We are having a wood pellet/solar system installed in a couple weeks to replace the oil boiler. Not the best setup for solar for us, but good enough that it'll heat the water for us in summer without the boiler having to burn.. Only reason we are adding solar is it's part of a package that the green weenies like and will help pay for and make the price real nice. If you have unrestricted southern exposure, you're missing out by not setting up solar. One thing about over here tho (and I believe it's the same for them), the water heater doesn't supplyappliances (washing machines and dishwashers) that need a lot of hot water. Those appliances heat their own water. If you don't have hot water heat of some kind and switch to it, you'll wonder how you ever survived without it.
 
I am very interested in this. We currently have hot water heat and I think it is the best. About 4 years ago we were looking to build and I read many books from the library on the various heating methods. From that I came away convinced hot water is the most logical/efficent method. The only question remains, what is the most affordable way to heat the water? We currently use propane and I have been thinking about an outdoor furnace. But this gasification really intrigues me.
 
(quoted from post at 18:26:16 11/08/12) I am very interested in this. We currently have hot water heat and I think it is the best. About 4 years ago we were looking to build and I read many books from the library on the various heating methods. From that I came away convinced hot water is the most logical/efficent method. The only question remains, what is the most affordable way to heat the water? We currently use propane and I have been thinking about an outdoor furnace. But this gasification really intrigues me.

If you have the southern exposure and room in your heater area for one or two big tanks, you can improve the efficiency of what you have right now. Solar to heat water ain't rocket science.
 
We have a gasification boiler, we had one that was about 20 years old that rusted through this summer so we replaced it and the new one is a design that seems to be even more efficient in how the air is routed through to get the maximum benefit from the gasification process. Solar does sound neat, I would like to find out more about that.
Zach
 
I have a friend in Southern Illinois who has solar heat. He uses an 800 gallon insulated tank in his basement for storage. Tank is wood with a pool liner, if I remember right. It has several thermostats that somehow compare the tank temp, the solar collector temp, and the indoor air temp. After a couple of cloudy days, the storage water cools, and it kicks on a heat pump. It's an interesting system, and it's been in use since around 1980. Clean and quiet. I hope you post more about Nickolas' system when he sends you the info.
 
These outdoor gassification boilers that they sell in this country are extremely ineficient. That Swedish unit is realtively tiny. By using the tanks with that small unit,you aren't just heating water even when you don't need it. Everything that you heat with the little bugger is stored to use when you need it. It isn't just sitting there burning and wasting a lot of wood.

As far as the solar units,Thogar said he can't belive that we can't buy them everywhere. He says over there you can buy them at any home improvement store.
 
I've always wondered why we use wind and solar cells, make electricity and try to store the energy in expensive batteries. Why not use wind power to power a heat pump, make hot and cold water with the freon? Cold water for cooling and hot water to heat.

Wind farms have a big problem getting the electricity from where it's generated to the big city. Seems power companies don't want to share power grids. Is it possible to use the electricity from wind farms, convert water in to hydrogen and oxygen? Hydrogen could be used to power cars using fuel cells or burn it like gas. Hydrogen pound for pound has about 2.5 times the energy of other fuels. Have a feeling that's why NASA used it.

I'm sure the green people would like hydrogen. When you burn hydrogen the exhaust is water.

George
 
That's kind of the problem though. I don't disagree with you,but while we're pondering technology that's too expensive and just experimental,we're skipping a step in the process that DOES work and acting like it doesn't exist. Baby steps. Let's use what works and is cheap and available NOW.
 
Ask T Boone Pickens, natural gas is here. T Boone thinks if all our over the road trucks used CNG, we wouldn't have to import oil. Instead the US is selling natural gas to other countries at a very cheap price. With the right backing and tax insentives, CNG could be done in 4 years.

There are alternatives. Not too many people want to think out of the box.

IMHO, the best alternative is INSULATION, INSULATION AND MORE INSULATION. Instead people want to add a wood burner.

How well insulated are the homes in Sweden?

George
 
i wonder at what temperature water becomes dead. I know that steam engines need additives, but that might have to do with impurities in the water. If that is the case, do they (the Swedes) have to start out with distilled water?
 
How energy efficent are their houses? When we were in Germany the house we stayed in had window frames that looked to be about 2 inches thick and were vinyl and had insulated glass that was thermo pane and looked to be appox 1 inch thick. The walls on the houses we real thick and we saw a new one being built and they were pumping foam into the blocks. I thick the oil companys over here is part of the reason they are so far ahead of us in the other countrys
 
He says his walls are insulated in the middle. There's an air space on the outside and also in the inside so the air can circulate and keep the moisture out entirely. He didn't say how thick the walls are or how thick the insulation is,but the house his house is over 150 years old. He said he did that with the insulation when he remodeled it,that's all i know about it.
 
I'd love to see those plans when you get them too.
I currently heat my shop with hot water, but the water is heated with propane.
I'm in the process of building my own solar heat for the pole barn.
Not far enough along to say how that will work yet, but its a great low cost project.
Keep us posted, and good luck to them all with the whitetails!
 
Have you mentioned the size of the houses. I know compared to worldwide, we in the US have much larger houses. You mentioned the latitude of Anchorage, but is that comparable in heating degree days, which we can use to compare heating needs in Kansas City, Des Moines, Minneapolis, and Winnepeg. Quite interesting, but the interesting subjects sometimes create more questions than answers.
 
I kinda of wonder how solar would work in Michigan, do we get enough sun? Sometimes it's overcast here for weeks, thanks to the great lakes around us.
 
I have been known to be a skeptic, & even wrong many times. Not doubting his sincerity, but I have trouble with some of the numbers.
From Physics 101- water at atmospheric pressure boils at 212F. No matter how much heat energy is added, it will turn to steam & not get hotter than that point without adding pressure. Steam will not get any hotter by adding heat energy either without adding pressure, it will just boil off faster. Adding pressure raises the boiling point 3 deg per lb pressure. To get 350F requires 414 psi. What does the system use to get that much pressure?
7 meters of tubing is only a tad over 23 feet. Hard to imagine large heat transfer from that amount of tubing. Is there a pump to circulate heated water from the solar panels to the storage tanks? Thermo-siphon wouldn't work as the hotter water would rise to top of solar panels.
What is room air temp during heating season. I admit the steady/constant temp of hot water radiant heat in the floor is the most comfortable.
Will stop here, getting too long
Willie
 

Trouble with us Americans is we over think things, are greedy, have the all or nothing attitude, and have to run it by bubba before we try anything...and are gullible to varying degrees...
We bought our house with only 2 little coal stoves for heating, a 5 liter water heater at the two sinks and a 10 gallon one at the bath tub and the water plumbing was galvanize pipe.. cheapest estimate to upgrade was 30k bucks cause you gotta do this and this gotta be like this and it's gotta be done by bubba cause he knows just how to hold the screwdriver... yadda yadda. Got ahold of some books with lots if pictures, bought copper pipe (cause I learned how to sweat fittings as a kid), radiators, fixtures, etc from the BB store and got busy. Got it all laid out and tested for leaks, got on ebay and got used boiler and oil tanks/hookups, and had a heating, hot water, and all new water lines for less than 1k bucks....
 
In the winter, we have longer nights and cloudy days. My solar lights in the yard don't get enough light during the winter to work all night. Check the number of days and hours of daylight, solar won't work for me.

I use passive solar, windows on the south side of house.
 
All I know for sure is that he's an engineer and not hurting for money,so he must be a good one.
If you think about it,the liquid can be 350F coming off the panels,but by the time it runs through the coils in the water tank,it won't be when it comes out the other side and the water certainly isn't going to reach that temp.

He said he's had as many as 14 people at the house working or hunting,all taking showers and has never run out of hot water.

Yes,the liquid is pumped through the panels and the water is pumped through the heating system,but he says that in a power outage it will thermo-siphon well enough to keep the house warm. He says he uses large tubing and low pressure. Said that when you reduce the size of the tubing you have to increase the pressure and increase the temp of the water. Says low pressure and large tubing is one of the keys to efficiency.

I have no reason to doubt anything he says.
 
I think by using it like he does,mainly from April thru September,we'd be OK. Darkness up there seems to be the reason he supplements it with the boiler in the winter.
 
Two words here Dave,politics and profit. We have usefull idiots on one side protecting the status quo and existing company profits and another batch of usefull idiots on the polar opposite trying to "save the planet" with government grants to build and push the idea of some distant future technology that the world isn't ready for yet.
There's no room for common sense in this country. You're shunned and mocked if you use any.

I was one of the first around here to have a big round baler and one of those gyro type hay rakes. You can't believe how many people just scoffed,even got belligerent,claiming they wouldn't work. So how many technologies have we farmers adopted from the Europeans now?
 
The good gasification boilers available in the US are Tarm and Garn. The larger the holding tank, the better the efficiency.
I do like solar as well, I don't have one now, but as a kid my dad had one to heat the basement floor. That was in the 80's and it worked, technology is much better now.
His was crude, but from Sept-Nov the basement floor was nice and warm, and then from Feb-April we would run it also. Nothing like a warm floor for your stocking feet. :)
 
(quoted from post at 04:33:23 11/09/12) I kinda of wonder how solar would work in Michigan, do we get enough sun? Sometimes it's overcast here for weeks, thanks to the great lakes around us.

Spook, you can check Padnos out in Grand Rapids. http://solar.padnos.com/
You can also see it on their roof, on Google Maps, Grand Rapids at 44ST and US131
 
Sounds like you have a con artist on your hands.His 350 degree anti freeze is going tobe boiling unless under very high pressure and no piping will stand that very long.There is only so many BTUs in a stick-lb.or cord of wood regardless of how it is burnt.50% or 100% burn=same BTU input.Find out what his BTU load is and maybe then it could????be possable.Can't be much.His story rings of or like Eden Pure heaters.
 
(quoted from post at 18:48:11 11/09/12) Sounds like you have a con artist on your hands.His 350 degree anti freeze is going tobe boiling unless under very high pressure and no piping will stand that very long.There is only so many BTUs in a stick-lb.or cord of wood regardless of how it is burnt.50% or 100% burn=same BTU input.Find out what his BTU load is and maybe then it could????be possable.Can't be much.His story rings of or like Eden Pure heaters.

shouldn't be so quick to call someone a liar... He may be a little off on his numbers, but you lose a little in the language barrier.... Bottom line is, he's got system that's just beyond anything bubba can fathom, so it just caint work darnit..........
 

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