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Farmall 140 charging issue

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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:43 am    Post subject: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I want to start out by saying what a great forum this is. Has helped me alot with my 1941A & 1964 140 indsutrial. I have a 1964 Farmall 140 with a 6V charging system, generator, distributor etc. wired for positive ground. The system was not charging, so I decided to get the system rebuilt. Here is what I have done so far:
Generator rewound at local shop (was tagged neg ground when I picked it up) - New voltage regulator for positive ground - new battery cables for my 6V battery (hooked up positive ground) - followed all wiring per International IH570A diagram to make sure mine was correct - removed light switch & fuse holder as tractor has all lights removed and I wanted to simplify the wiring - cleaned generator & regulator mounting areas for good ground connection - after mounting & wiring everything, I polarized the system as described by John T in so many of his electrical postings on this site! - polarizing the genny should take care of the genny being marked negative ground by the rebuilder ????? - when I pull out the ignition switch, the ammeter reads approx -10 discharge - when I start the tractor, it reads approx -10 discharge - if I ground the "F" terminal on the genny, the ammeter gets burried to the positive side, and the battery reads 8V across the terminals - the battery reads 6.3V before starting and after starting without the "F" terminal grounded - I tried running a ground from the battery grounded terminal (+) to the genny and then to the VR with no change in results - suggestions ??????????????? Help !!!!!
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Gee its charging toooooooo much (opposite the normal complaint) butttttttt that will cook and outgas and boil acid over and ruin a battery worse then one thats NOT being charged.....

YES when you Polarized at Pos ground at home, that fixed the gennys orientation. They can be polarized on the tractor or at your mother in laws house no matter.

Is it a 2 or 3 brush genny?? If a 3 Id and its adjustable Id back off the third brush farther away from the one it sits next to.

Sounds like that VR isnt doing its job and/or or isnt matched to your genny. Bob M and I had this discussion via e mail a while back.

If it dont charge at all unless you manually ground the gennys FLD post,,,,,,,,VR is bad or not well grounded or mis adjusted (may well be the case) or wires bad from FLD on VR to gennys FLD post

If it overcharges see if its a 3 brush...

WOW turning on igntion should only draw 4 Amps NOT 10 SURE ALL IS WIRED CORRECT???

That new VR IS A 6 NOT A 12 VOLT RIGHT????

There may be a mis wiring or short cuz that - 10 amps when ign is on puzzles me

John T
 
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John T PS
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Just as I asked if VR was 6 not 12 volt, sure the genny was rebuilt for 6 not 12 volts???

John T
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

John,

I purchased the VR @ the local International dealer - part number matches the manual for a 6V positive ground - 121578C1 - just as everything else is going in this country, box says made overseas - India - the genny should have been rewired for 6V, and if it were wired for 12V, I would be seeing a much higher output from the genny - the reading @ the battery should be somewhere around 7.2V, correct???? - with the genny "F" grounded, I agree 8V is high, but the VR should take care of that, shouldn't it??? - I think I may have to go back and argue with the dealer that the VR may be bad from the get go
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

John,

I forgot to answer the question regarding number of brushes - it is a 3 brush - I will try moving the brush to reduce voltage output - Thanks
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

John,

Wiring is as follows:

Genny "F" terminal to "F" terminal on VR
Genny "A" terminal to "GEN" terminal on VR
VR "BAT" terminal to "+" side of ammeter
"-" side of ammeter to lug on starter
VR "L" terminal to ignition switch
opposite side of ignition switch to "-" side of coil
"+" side of coil to distributor
"-" side of battery to lug on starter
"+" side of battery to ground

That is how she is wired - I checked continuity on the wiring from genny to VR and everything looked good
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I just got finished changing out the ammeter, and it now reads around 5amp draw when pulling the ignition switch. Going to the dealer now to swap out the VR
 
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gene bender
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

simple test when yOU ground the field the problem is the vr. Get the DELCO REMY # so if you have to have a new regulator to get the correct one for the generator you have as the regulator for your generator needs the correct one to match. Most places will have the regulators to match your gen.
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yep, the VR (if working correct ) has either a Voltage or Current or Combination (voltage and Current) field current control relay THAT SHOULD INDEED limit the gennys output and if its allowing the battery to get to 8 volts (7 TO 7.2 is more typical) ITS NOT DOING ITS JOB PERIOD

Bob M and discussed this and Im of the opinion instead of specifically matching a VR to a particular Genny these days, they are making one size fits all which works fine on some gennys BUT NOT ALL........ One hugeeeeeeee difference (in VR's) is the ohms of the VR's internal field resistor and its different for different gennys but I doubt they really pay that much attention when they make them in Indian or China. If that resistor is wayyyyyyy low I can envision overcharging.

John T
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Put a new battery in the 140 - checked voltage again - battery reads 6.36V with cables on - reads 6.2V when I pull the ingnition switch (4 amps) - reads 6.36V running - ground the genny "F" terminal and the reading between "F" and "A" is 9.25V (5amp) and the reading between battery posts is 8.68V - if I measure between the "F" & "A" while running without the "F" grounded, I get a reading of .38V - still leaning toward a bad "new" VR
 
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Hugh MacKay
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jeff: What is the tractor serial number. All 140s after serial number 26801 were 12 volt neg. ground from the factory. Since 1964 Farmall 140 started at serial number 25387, probably by May 64 they were all 12 volt.
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Update - took the new VR off and opened her up - thin wire coming from "F" terminal (normally closed contacts) was blown - I'm assuming from the overvoltage from the genny - I actually measured 9.25V today when grounding the "F' terminal on the genny!!! - will be taking it back to the rewind shop to get it right - was the VR due to the genny after all - thanks for all of your responses and help - finished painting my 1941A today - should have it running in another week or two after a complete rebuild - just need to assemble the newly painted sheetmetal & rewire - these tractors are great mowing machines
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hugh,

S/N is 26359J - she was a 6V when I got ahold of her - as with most of these tractors, they have been fooled with over the years - so this should be an original 12V tractor? - I know the paint under all of the red is yellow, so it is an industrial - has the tach, diamond tube front axle - diagonal brace from front axle back to bell housing
 
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Hugh MacKay
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jeff: Your tractor would have been 6 volt from factory. I can't see my text from first post, however it should read 140s after 26801 were 12 volt.

All Industrial 140 prior to end of 1967 were badged on side as International with McCormick in small print. Farmalls were badged as Farmall with McCormick in small print. After 67 they were all badged International with Farmall having that in small print on 140 badge. The words McCormick also disappeared in at beginning of 68.

All small IH tractors during the 1960s were primed with yellow primer, thus yellow showing up under red tells you very little.

Diamond axle does indicate industrial, but it was an option on a Farmall. Tach was an option on all 140.
 
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Jeff 140
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: Farmall 140 charging issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hugh,

Thanks for the info - it will help alot - I did know that the tach was an optional piece of equipment, but I did not realize that if you were buying a Farmall, the diamond tube front axle was an option! - thanks again
 
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