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1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems.


 
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Ricky_Jr.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Just honed engine, put new rings, rod bearings, head gasket, oil pan gasket. Still has smoke rolling out of the oil cap and the valve cover breather. Seems to be a little worse under a load. Only ran it about an hour or so. Does it take this long for the rings to set? Also, seems to crank and crank to get it to start. Today wasn't as bad but after I mowed a little with it I tried to start it again but wouldn't fire up. Any hints or do I just need to give it some more time?
 
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curtis larson
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Did you check your end gap on the rings. Sounds like you may have put in standard rings in the engine that has been bored oversize. Our perhaps you put your rings in upside down.
 
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Ricky_Jr.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

My dad helped me put it back together. We put the rings in the right way and he said that the engine had not been bored. Any other thoughts?
 
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M-MAN
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Those rings won't be fully seated this time next week even if you run it 8 hours a day. It takes a while. You still shoulden't have smoke rolling out. You didn't mention having the head worked & it should have been. Sounds to me like the compression is too low. That makes it hard to crank. It will get better.

You didn't say if you measured the ring end gap. Did You? Did you cut the ridge so as not to break a ring? Scrape the grooves throughly so as not to break a ring? Did you offset all the ring gap's? Set valve lash correctly?

Run it a while & then check the plugs. That will tell you which cylinder has a problem.
 
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kyhayman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What was the cylinder diameter? Any variance between the cylinders. I got into a mess on an 885 DB diesel that 'had never been touched'. Somebody somewhere sure did, one cylinder was bored 20 over before I started and being new to engines I only checked on cylinder and it came up standard size, so I put in standard pistones. It lasted about 10 hours before it knocked a hole in the block.

What I've found, when something obviously isnt right, its best to stop right here and take it back down measuring everything at every step.
 
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WayneIA
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Just for kicks, check the timing , 4 degrees before TDC
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Did you check for cylinder taper? my 960 was tapered pretty bad.
 
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jdiesel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

did you consider rebuilding the engine right? sleeves, pistons, valves and seals, guides, main brgs and oil pump? sounds like you did not touch any of them. you left alot of variables in your engine to go wrong. new rings will not seat on an out of round bore or tapered bore, and they will not seal if the ring lands in the pistons are wore. i am sorry to say but you just wasted your time with all that. that fix was about as good as running bar and chain oil mixed with Lucas to take care of a rod knock.
 
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Errin OH
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

BTDT - A re-ring is possible but it will not be perfect.

In my case I did a 1953 Jubilee (same engine). First problem I ran into was standard rings did not work. End gap due to cylinder wear could not be met. Had to buy over sized rings and hand fit the gap. You do that by inserting the ring in the cylinder and trimming the ends until proper gap is met. The biggest issue with re-ring only is the cylinder, again due to wear, will be out of round. You can measure this by placing the newly fitted ring in the cylinder and slipping a feeler gage around the cylinder wall looking for a spot it will slip in-between the ring and wall.

In my case I bought a non-running tractor that would try to start but just not catch. Starter on 12v would just not spin it fast enough to get it to build up enough compression to start. If I drop oil in the cylinders it would start but lacked power and die easily under load. I think my compression was in the 60's on all cylinders. When I did it with standard rings not knowing what I was doing it would start but smoke and gush oil out of the vertical stack like a blown oil well. I ended up with 0.30 over rings trimmed to fit and had a working tractor that didn't smoke but had a small amount of blow by due to the out of round conditions in the cylinders.

Now since you say it is running, it must be all back together. Your best bet to see if this is your issue is to do a compression test. Dry at first, record readings. Then wet and compare readings. If by chance you have decent/ok/runable readings around 110 psi (dry), it is possible you have an oil ring issue. I found the three piece oil rings flat do not work on less than perfect cylinder conditions. I had to find a suitable solid one piece cast oil ring and fit it like the rest.

BTW - it took me three times of tearing it down to learn all this. I know you don't want to hear this but I would get ready for a trip back in the engine. My first attempt was std rings, very poor results, my second attempt was to replace the compression rings with over sized and had a decent running tractor that spewed oil (ran it a month this way hoping it would fix itself). The third trip in was to replace the three piece oil ring with a solid one. End up with a decent running tractor, no smoke, good power, minor blowby.
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

whats a dry/wet comp check say.

soundguy
 
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Ricky_Jr.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks for everybodies replies. Just to let you know I got a great deal on the tractor and it came with a 6ft mower and a box for 1500. This is more of a learning experience for engine work. My dad said he had done a few but it was mainly with diesels and they got new sleeves pistons and everything. This was mainly a tear down to make sure there wasn't any major problems. The rod bearings looked good and the motor didn't knock or anything. It just had a lot of blow by. We thought we would try a re-ring and cross our fingers. The compression check came up at 75 psi. Running on a little bit of a budget until I get my first paycheck after working for two months!! (school teacher) Mowed 3 acres acres today and only burned a quart of oil. I've been known to spend more money on an old girlfriend in one weekend!! My old Ford is still in the backyard! Any other advice would be great. Thanks again for all your replies. Very Happy
 
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NEBeef
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: 1956 Ford 640 Rebuild. Still Blow-by. Starting problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Haven't done a 600 in a while, but the last one I did , the price of a whole rebuild kit that included sleeves and pistons was less money than one piston and sleeve from a Case I was doing at that time. Guess what I'm saying in your case is there's probably not too much reason to be spending a lot of time and money trying to get old worn parts in the 600 to work better - just replace them, IMO...
 


Last edited by NEBeef on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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