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Another e10 experiment


 
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NOXJohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I had a boiling problem earlier this spring so I decided to do an experiment. In all three cases below I used the same 1949 8N front mount 12 volt with EI, a Caroni 5' finish mower and mowed the same yard which takes about three and one half hours to complete. I am sure the vent in the tank is open and I have also drilled a 1/8" hole in the plastic top of the gage type cap. Also I was the operator in all three cases and ran the tractor at the same speed and the same route. The tractor has been modified to have a proof meter and a temperature gage. It has a 160 degree thermostat. Gas in Case #1 and Case#3 were purchased at the same station but at different times as noted. Case #1. Early May, temperature in low 80's. Temperature gage read about 180 degrees. I used e10 gas I had purchased last October that I had added Stabil when purchased. When I finished the gas was boiling so badly that it was scary. Vapors whistled out of both the tank vent and the hole in the cap for 10-15 minutes after tractor was turned off. I did smell a slight gas odor while mowing but if I would have noticed how badly it was boiling I would have stopped. Case #2. Late May, temperature in the mid 80's. Temperature gage read around 185 degrees. I used gas recently purchased that contained no alcohol and was 89 octane. I had no boiling problems. There were no vapor escape sounds from the vents while mowing or when turned off when finished. Case #3. Yesterday, temperature in low 80's. Temperature gage read about 180 degrees. I used e10 gas recently purchased but had not added any Stabil. I should have added Stabil to eliminate that as a contributing factor and will do in the future. I had no boiling problems. I saw no difference between how this e10 reacted and the no alcohol gas previously used in Case#2. I am not sure what this proves but I will not used left over "winter blend" e10 in the future once mowing season starts. I plan to use e10 "summer blend" for the remainder of this mowing season and add Stabil to make sure it does not contribute to fuel boiling. The boiling problem may be associated with using the "winter blend" e10 in warmer temperatures.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

NOXJohn wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:58:03 06/09/12) I had a boiling problem earlier this spring so I decided to do an experiment. In all three cases below I used the same 1949 8N front mount 12 volt with EI, a Caroni 5' finish mower and mowed the same yard which takes about three and one half hours to complete. I am sure the vent in the tank is open and I have also drilled a 1/8" hole in the plastic top of the gage type cap. Also I was the operator in all three cases and ran the tractor at the same speed and the same route. The tractor has been modified to have a proof meter and a temperature gage. It has a 160 degree thermostat. Gas in Case #1 and Case#3 were purchased at the same station but at different times as noted. Case #1. Early May, temperature in low 80's. Temperature gage read about 180 degrees. I used e10 gas I had purchased last October that I had added Stabil when purchased. When I finished the gas was boiling so badly that it was scary. Vapors whistled out of both the tank vent and the hole in the cap for 10-15 minutes after tractor was turned off. I did smell a slight gas odor while mowing but if I would have noticed how badly it was boiling I would have stopped. Case #2. Late May, temperature in the mid 80's. Temperature gage read around 185 degrees. I used gas recently purchased that contained no alcohol and was 89 octane. I had no boiling problems. There were no vapor escape sounds from the vents while mowing or when turned off when finished. Case #3. Yesterday, temperature in low 80's. Temperature gage read about 180 degrees. I used e10 gas recently purchased but had not added any Stabil. I should have added Stabil to eliminate that as a contributing factor and will do in the future. I had no boiling problems. I saw no difference between how this e10 reacted and the no alcohol gas previously used in Case#2. I am not sure what this proves but I will not used left over "winter blend" e10 in the future once mowing season starts. I plan to use e10 "summer blend" for the remainder of this mowing season and add Stabil to make sure it does not contribute to fuel boiling. The boiling problem may be associated with using the "winter blend" e10 in warmer temperatures.
Very good, John, but summer /winter blend changeover dates are flexible, so unless you have some inside information, I don't know how you would know for sure which you bought in May as that is a "iffy" date in the middle of changeover??
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

NOXJohn wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:58:03 06/09/12) I had a boiling problem earlier this spring so I decided to do an experiment. In all three cases below I used the same 1949 8N front mount 12 volt with EI, a Caroni 5' finish mower and mowed the same yard which takes about three and one half hours to complete. I am sure the vent in the tank is open and I have also drilled a 1/8" hole in the plastic top of the gage type cap. Also I was the operator in all three cases and ran the tractor at the same speed and the same route. The tractor has been modified to have a proof meter and a temperature gage. It has a 160 degree thermostat. Gas in Case #1 and Case#3 were purchased at the same station but at different times as noted. Case #1. Early May, temperature in low 80's. Temperature gage read about 180 degrees. I used e10 gas I had purchased last October that I had added Stabil when purchased. When I finished the gas was boiling so badly that it was scary. Vapors whistled out of both the tank vent and the hole in the cap for 10-15 minutes after tractor was turned off. I did smell a slight gas odor while mowing but if I would have noticed how badly it was boiling I would have stopped. Case #2. Late May, temperature in the mid 80's. Temperature gage read around 185 degrees. I used gas recently purchased that contained no alcohol and was 89 octane. I had no boiling problems. There were no vapor escape sounds from the vents while mowing or when turned off when finished. Case #3. Yesterday, temperature in low 80's. Temperature gage read about 180 degrees. I used e10 gas recently purchased but had not added any Stabil. I should have added Stabil to eliminate that as a contributing factor and will do in the future. I had no boiling problems. I saw no difference between how this e10 reacted and the no alcohol gas previously used in Case#2. I am not sure what this proves but I will not used left over "winter blend" e10 in the future once mowing season starts. I plan to use e10 "summer blend" for the remainder of this mowing season and add Stabil to make sure it does not contribute to fuel boiling. The boiling problem may be associated with using the "winter blend" e10 in warmer temperatures.


It's worth noting that your local area in PA and mine in MD both have state requirements more stringent than the EPA's and neither state allows any increase in RVP for gasoline blended with ethanol. So for any given season both E10 and straight gasoline have the same RVP maximum.

TOH
 


Last edited by TheOldHokie on Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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NOXJohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

TOH, is there a diffrence in the RVP for winter blend and summer blend?
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

NOXJohn wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:04:58 06/09/12) TOH, is there a diffrence in the RVP for winter blend and summer blend?


Yes but not sure of the exact numbers in our localities. Probably something pretty close to 9.0 PSI for winter and 7.0 PSI for summer.

TOH
 
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NOXJohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

For those of us that don't have a clue about what that means can you explain how the difference between 9.0 PSI for winter blend and 7.0 PSI for summer blend would effect how the fuel would react to ambient temperature?
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

NOXJohn wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:17:38 06/09/12) For those of us that don't have a clue about what that means can you explain how the difference between 9.0 PSI for winter blend and 7.0 PSI for summer blend would effect how the fuel would react to ambient temperature?


It's a complicated physical phenomenon with a lot of variables but here are the basics:
  1. RVP = Reid Vapor Pressure = the vapor pressure of the blend measured at a liquid temperature of 100F
  2. The vapor pressure of the blend increases when the liquid is warmed and decreases when it is cooled.
  3. When vapor pressure exceeds atmospheric pressure (nominally 14.7 PSI) the liquid begins to evaporate and "boils"

So winter gas is allowed to have a slightly higher RVP since ambient temperatures are lower and the liquid gas doesn't get as hot. In the summer when the ambients and gas temps go up the RVP must be reduced to control evaporative loss.

TOH
 
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NOXJohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Any wild guess of the difference between in the boiling points of winter blend versus summer blend? Based on what you know do you think that using winter blend in the summer could result in the gas boiling in the tank of a Ford N tractor?
 
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rlpintx
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I know compression wise the tractor doesn't need it but I use premium gas 93octane. Mower, chainsaw and stuff require it to run right when it's hot so the left overs goes in the tractor. Keeps me from having bad gas in the tractor. Only put in about what I plan to use at a time.
 
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Charles Krammin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I talked to a GMC employee, who designs carburation for vehicles. He stated that gas is 15 different gaseos compounds. He stated that if they add more "butane" it causes vaporation problems. When I backpack in the winter, I can not get a straight "butane" fuel supply to vaporize, but have no problem, with "propane" or "whitegas". I believe that here in Michigan, that they have a "winter blend" for "more vaporazation" and a "summer blend" for "lower vaporation". Michigan also "subsidises" "ethanol" and thefore is in most pump "Octane blends". The above variables cause different results in most tests.
If I remember right the "octane rating" is based on the comparison to "alcohol", which is consided "100 octane", and is an "anti-knock" rating (pre-ignition "ping") In the old days of "leaded gas", We didn't experience pinging problem, only fouled sparkplugs.

Charles Krammin SW MI
 
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Gaspump
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

We even have winter blend here in FL. As you folks have determined it is difficult to find out which blend occurs when. Tougher question is to get an answer on whether there is any MTBE in your local gasoline. This stuff is a disaster and Algore backed the continuation of its addition to gasoline. MTBE has cancer causing agents in it and a small amount gasoline with it in it can contaminate well for a long period of time. Here in FL leaking tanks at gas stations are of great concern as well as many other states, MTBE is a great concern. MTBE needs to be outlawed everywhere and never approved by any govt agency. Till its gone do not dispose of any of todays gasoline by simply dumping it on the ground.
 
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Mad Farmer
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"octane" rating is based on 2,2,4-trimethyl pentane, e.g. isooctane
 
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Indiana Ken
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Reply to NOX John, Enjoyed reading the results of your experiment.

IMO I believe your experiment shows the variation in vapor pressure of gasoline and is not specific to ethanol. This pressure is defined as Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) and is measured at 100 F. There is a detailed procedure to measure RVP but you can measure it yourself by simply installing a pressure gauge in your gasoline container. The container must be sealed, non-venting when measuring the pressure. The pressure developed will vary depending on the amount of fuel in the container, actual RVP is measured at a 75% fill as I recall.

Gasoline is blended to a range of RVPs between 8 and 15 Psi (note the EPA does make changes to the specification so consider these as reference only). Also, these numbers vary by region and in the winter the RVP tends to be closer to the 15 number to improve cold starting. To measure the vapor pressure fill a 5 gallon container with 4 gallons of fuel, seal it, sit it outside on a 100 degree (or otherwise warm the fuel) day and read the pressure gauge. You should see a pressure reading somewhere in the range of 8 to 15 Psi. The pressure reading will increase with increasing temperature, however RVP is specfic to the 100 degree point.

The definition of boiling is when the fuild vapor pressure exceeds ambient pressure. Therefore, whenever the pressure gauge reading is above zero the fuel wants to boil and vapor will escape if the container is vented.

My chainsaws are filled from a sealed container which I installed a pressure gauge. I monitor the gasoline's vapor pressure to ensure I do not have cold starting issues when I am back in the woods. In the summer I want a lower vapor which helps prevent flooding during starting.

All newer cars/trucks have a vapor recovery system to collect the gasoline vapors which boil off. On your 8N the boiling is very evident if one looks for it. I grew up on an 1952 8N and remember very well the gasoline vapors with a hot engine.
 
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Ken(Ark)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Another e10 experiment Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I believe I would glue a large piece of foil backed foam to the bottom of the gas tank .
 
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