Yesterday's Tractor Co.
Shop Now View Cart
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 9N,2N,8N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Traditional YT Forum ViewClassic View   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile    Log inLog in 

Question for the gurus. 545A - long


 
Post new topic    
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ultradog MN
Tractor Guru


Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 20719
Location: Twin Cities

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

So we went to pick up the tractor today.
Had to borrow a gooseneck to haul it as it's too wide for my trailer.
Seller called me this morning and said he'd plugged the block heater in overnight, put a car battery in it and was surprised that it started right up this morning.
We got there and put a fresh charged 4DLT in it, turned the key and kathunk. It didnt turn over. Nada. Tried jumping it. Kathunk.
Wondered if somehow the cylinders got full of fuel or water so I loosened all 3 injectors and easily lifted them up 1/8" to see if it was hydrolocked.
Still kathunk. No liquid came out of injector holes. None!
So we hooked onto it with a chain and pulled it with the pickup - high gear.
Wont turn over.
Wondered if the starter was locked into the ring gear so I loosened it.
Nada.
Removed the starter completely and tried pulling it again.
It's locked up tight.
40 degree day here. Block is still warm - either from the heater or running.
Called the seller. He swears it started and ran this morning. Says he drove it to the driveway.
He seemed like a honest man but is not mechanical at all.
Here is an important clue:
The 3 point arms are all the way down in the photos I posted here.
They were all the way up when we got there and still up when we left.
Tractor has IPTO.
Tells me it had to have run or at least turn over to raise them right?
Oil is black, not milky at all. 1/3 quart low. Coolant low but visible just below the fins. Both same as before.

What happened?
Hydraulic pump for the loader lock up somehow?

How hard is it to access the loader pump in the bolster?
Can I disconnect it from the front?
Remove the grill and radiator?
I bought this thing pretty cheap.
Not crying or worried about losing my $.
It's a 75 minute drive over there though.
Looking for ideas and am all ears...
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Ultradog MN
Tractor Guru


Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 20719
Location: Twin Cities

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Another clue,
Goes along with the lift arms being up.
Last week the loader bucket was 3/4 full of solid ice.
Yesterday it was empty.
It warmed up here so the ice would have melted around the edges but it would have had to run to dump the bucket.
Also, I did not think of this yesterday.
It would not turn over by pulling the tractor.
I wish I had put it in reverse and pulled it forward to turn the engine backwards but did not think if it.
Sone things I have thought about.
Could the injector pump just suddenly lock up?
How about the PS pump?
How about something in the transmission/IPTO/hyd pump drive?
Those things turn all the time when the engine runs.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Bern
Tractor Guru


Joined: 05 Apr 1999
Posts: 4670


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You stated that the former owner had it running before you got there. I'd ask him if he shut it off, or if it "shutoff by itself", meaning something seized. If it is the latter, then of course assume the worst, such as a seized engine due to a possible loss of oil pressure.

Since you have the starter out, take a pry bar and try to turn the engine over with the ring gear teeth (this could be tough with a loader frame in the way). If it won't move at all, I'd say your engine is seized. If it moves a little back and forth, like one tooth, possibly your transmission is seized, although that would be extremely odd. Did you check the oil in the tranny? If it looks good, I'd rule out a seized tranny.

Yes, injection pumps can seize, but that won't keep the engine from turning over. The injection pump rotor shaft will simply shear in half. I've never seen a PS pump seize, and if it did, I think you'd have the same result as with the injection pump. And finally, I've never seen a front loader pump seize either. I suppose if it did, it *might* prevent the engine from turning over due to its size, but I would be shocked to find out that this was the reason.

Based on what you've stated so far, I would assume the worst - a seized engine. If you can turn the engine over with the pry bar, then something happened to your starter.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
RodinNS
Tractor Guru


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 15459


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'd say if a P/S pump locked up it would shear the drive key... I did that on a hydro pump once...

Sounds like the engine is just locked up to me...

Rod
 
Back to top
View user's profile
pomester
Regular


Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 214


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There is the possibility as you mentioned of the hydraulic pump seizing - seems unlikely, but possibly worth checking as the linkage is robust enough to stop the engine from turning without just shearing something - -

I think you'll find the drive shaft for the pump attached to the front engine pulley with four bolts - it'll be difficult to access them without being able to turn the engine but possible if you have a short wrench to work with - the bolt heads on my 4500 were 5/8", but if I were traveling to work on this machine I'd have a 9/16, 5/8, and 11/16 in my kit - I pick up decent quality wrenches at flea markets and cut them to make short handled units for tight places -

I don't see how the transmission/PTO could cause this since you can disengage them both with the clutch and obviously did if you moved it around trying to start it -

did you check to see if the starter operated when you had it loose?

doesn't seem reasonable - - good luck, hope it's something simple that is being overlooked -
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Bern
Tractor Guru


Joined: 05 Apr 1999
Posts: 4670


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Since the tractor has IPTO, stepping on the clutch will not disengage the PTO input shaft from the engine.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
ptfarmer
Tractor Expert


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 3396
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You could take the valve cover off to make sure it didn't swallow a valve.
If it has a clutch will it turn over with the clutch pedal depressed?
Did you try turning the engine over backwards, if you have the starter off with a pry bar to see what it will do?
While I don't think it is the hydraulic pump you can uncouple it from the engine and try it.

I have the same engine in my 4500 industrial, it had a spun number 1 rod bearing which messed up the crank beyond repair. I bought a gasket kit with piston rings, pistons, a good used connecting rod, and a .020-.020 undersize crankshaft with bearings, new oil pump, and a new water pump. I have about $1100 in new parts for the engine, and I still need to have it bored .020 over (probably didn't need boring yet, but why not). I'm also going to have the big end of the connecting rods checked, and have them resized if needed.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
pomester
Regular


Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 214


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

is not the PTO operated similarly to others with a two stage clutch? - depressing the clutch all the way should allow the engine to crank without the PTO input shaft rotating -
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Ultradog MN
Tractor Guru


Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 20719
Location: Twin Cities

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks.
We're going to go back up there with a different trailer maybe weds or thurs afternoon. This trailer has a good winch on it so we'll drag it on and mess with it here.
I'm looking forward to figuring this out.
I posted last fall about what a miserable experience it was to free up the metering valve on Kenny's 4400 cause you can't see or reach anything in there with the loader on.
This loader doesnt interfere much at all for access to the pump or starter. It's almost as easy as a 3 cyl that has no loader on it at all.

 
Back to top
View user's profile
Bern
Tractor Guru


Joined: 05 Apr 1999
Posts: 4670


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The OP stated that the tractor has IPTO, meaning the input for the PTO clutch turns whenever the engine is running - there is no disconnect.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
RodinNS
Tractor Guru


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 15459


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Do yourself a favor and sleeve it back to standard if you bore it.... All 3 holes.

Rod
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Ultradog MN
Tractor Guru


Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 20719
Location: Twin Cities

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bern is correct.
The twin input shafts on the transmission are the same for live and independent pto machines.
This is a typical 3 cylinder dual input.



This is the dual pressure plate from a live pto machine.
You can see the hub of the secondary disc that drives the pto.
This type Is affected by the operation of the clutch pedal.



Here is the pressure plate from an independent pto machine.
Notice that the hub for the pto, etc is rivited directly to the pressure plate.
So anytime the engine is turning it is transmitting power through the secondary shaft in the
transmission.




Remember that on these 65 and newer 4000s - and 5000s, 7000s, etc, etc the hydraulic pump is in the
rear center housing. So in order to have live hydraulics the secondary shaft must be turning whenever
the engine is running. Behind the pump is a clutch pack that engages the pto hydraulically. So you can
engage the pto at any time - clutch in, clutch out - makes no difference.
The pto and hydraulic pump are "independent" of clutch function.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
pomester
Regular


Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 214


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

very good - thanks for the pictures - I learned something -
David
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Royse
Tractor Guru


Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 14057
Location: Ionia County Michigan

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"The pto and hydraulic pump are "independent" of clutch function."

Thus the difference between "Live" PTO and "independent" PTO.
They're definitely not the same.
It sure took Ford long enough to get there, but I'm glad they did.
My 1953 John Deere has both options without a Select-O-Speed.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
dbNga
Regular


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 325


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for the gurus. 545A - long Reply to specific post Reply with quote

UD does it have the spring loaded T-handle parking brake mechanism like is missing on my 3550? If so I got dibs...
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Yesterday's Tractors Forum Index -> Ford All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  

TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
Fast Shipping!  Most of our stocked parts ship within 24 hours (M-Th). Expedited shipping available, just call! Most prices for parts and manuals are below our competitors. Compare our super low shipping rates! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor. We are a company you can trust and have generous return policies. Shop Online Today or call our friendly sales staff toll free (800) 853-2651. [ About Us ]

YT Home  |  Forums

Modern View Forum powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters