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Pulling cam, in frame

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IanC
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I just remembered something that we came across at the dealership once. Guy brought in a 134/172 engined tractor (don't remember which now). He'd overhauled it but couldn't get it to run. Did have all new parts inside. Tech worked on it for most of a day before he found the problem. The customer or his machinist had installed the crank gear on backwards so the timing dot was on the side towards the crank not the pulley, and had followed the tooth around and re-stamped the timing dot onto the same tooth instead of correct position in relation to the key slot.
 
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agjim
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've been thru this too. First thing to try is pull the inj. pump shaft and check the number on the top end. This number designates the degree the pump shaft is ground on. There are 2 or 3 or 4 different degree shafts for that pump/engine combination. If you talk with Glenn at DFS (256-657-5193), give him your pump number he can tell you which shaft you need and may be able to furnish you with the correct shaft if yours is not right.
Next, originally the diesel cam did have DIESEL cast into the cam. At one time long ago TISCO would list gas and diesel for their camshaft but later they said gas only. I believe a diesel cam will work in a gas but a gas cam may not work in a diesel.
To pull the cam you must remove the engine from the tractor and remove everything from the rear of the engine to get access to the hyd. pump gear. You could pull the oil pan and inspect the cam while turning the engine to find the casting numbers and look for the word DIESEL cast into the cam. Also you can push lifters up with a screw driver from the underside and put a clothes pin on top of the lifter to hold them above the cam so it will slide out.
Jim
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ya, I forgot about throwing the valve timing off. I know I have seen cams with DIESEL cast into them but Ford parts manual shows same part number for gas or diesel, look at pics, 1st pic is 53/up gas, second pic is 58/ up diesel. I have 2 cams that dont say diesel but have the same part number 310377 cast in. They dont have the part #CONN 6251-A that is in the book.


 
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Sean in PA
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Quote:
I have 2 cams that dont say diesel but have the same part number 310377 cast in. They dont have the part #CONN 6251-A that is in the book.


The casting number is usually not the part number. They are two different things used for two different purposes. The casting number is used by the folks in the design and manufacturing process and the part number is used by the folks in the parts distribution network. A casting number is specific to one particular iteration of a design of a part that has a particular part number, and that casting number may change several times during the time that the part number itself is still in use.
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That pump shaft thing might be right. Dieseltech would know that. I didnt know there were different ones.
 
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TinCan
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I called Glenn at DFS, he said that the shaft I should have is a #10259. On the end of my shaft, they didn't machine it real smooth, and I put on my magnifying glass headset, and I can only make out a 10, and below that an -3. He said he didn't know anything about mine! He said that from '57 to 60? they used a different shaft,, and didn't have the removable 1 1/8" hex's on each side for the automatic advance. After that they all used a #10259, and had the automatic advance nuts. He said that he could not tell me anything about the degrees it's at, just it used a #10259 shaft.

He said that I should check the backlash in the gears to make sure there was not to much. He told me that he hears that people play with the drive gear, moving it a tooth, and try to slot the holes. Other then that, he had nothing for me. He doesn't know anything as far as the cam, or gears, he only knows about the pump it's self. He said if I send the pump to him, for $200.00 he can check the timing marks. I know that the timing marks are good already, as they can't move from their located spot.

So, it looks like it's back to what is the cam, and what should it be, and how to tell if it is right, or wrong.

Thanks, Pat
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Its small things like this that can really bug your brain. I have to hand it to you for your perseverance. I went back and read your old post on the pump timing. I just dont know, It could be a partially sheared cam key or the wrong cam. Those tractor pull guys might have the degrees when the valves start to open. Your valve timing should tell if your cam is off. A custom grinder might have the specs.
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You know, your oil pump entrance shaft face might have enough wear to throw that pump gear off. You can pull that hex driveshaft out with a magnet or magnetic socket ( careful they are slippery) and measure the distance from the face to the top of the gear hole. I can check an engine I have on a stand for the measurement also. Let me know if thats the plan.
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

On second thought, just measure from the top of the gear to the top of the gear hole.
 
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TinCan
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote



I'll go out in a short while, and get both with & with out the gear drive in the block. I have depth mic's to get a good accurate measurement. If you could get the measurement to the top of the gear, and to the top of the gear hole surface, that would be great. I have wondered what it should be.

Thanks, Pat
 
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TinCan
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:49 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

riveroadrat wrote:
(quoted from post at 22:03:26 05/15/1Cool Its small things like this that can really bug your brain. I have to hand it to you for your perseverance. I went back and read your old post on the pump timing. I just dont know, It could be a partially sheared cam key or the wrong cam.


I have to get it fixed right, I'm not one for crap work! Plus, I need to use it to mow the backyard with, and I'm getting ready to dig a new pond, using the Case dozer, and my tractor with a box blade. to finish it.

I still have the front cover loose. I'll give a closer look at the cam & crank gear keys.

Pat
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a problem with a calfs belly button hernia right now, I'll get to it as soon as possible. You might just need to shim that end. Get measurements on the pump shaft to gear and pump body to block also and see how much the differences are. If the oil pump face is worn too much it would let that gear drop down and change timing. The oil pump body is cast aluminum I think.
 
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Destroked 450
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Years ago a neighbor had a 59 or 60 801 diesel that broke a crank shaft, he installed a 4000 crank he found at a salvage yard.
They had a fair bit of trouble getting the engine timed and I don't remember what they finally had to do to correct it.
It was ether changing the crank gear or installing a 4000 cam and gear or changing the pump shaft but there was something different that threw off the pump timing.

Todays parts look up has all of the updated numbers so one can't see what changes were made unless someone has a old parts book.
 
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TinCan
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote



Not a problem, get to it when you can. I also have 5-6 different things I'm working on at once! lol It never ends. Next I'll go check out the cam & crank gears, while I change the sector shaft packing & seals. I'm also pumping water out of a hole I dug to bury two plastic 55 gal barrels for my grey water. Every time I get it empty, it rains and fills it up again! Yesterday I was gone most the day, and the hole was the driest it has been since I dug, then it rained 1 1/4" yesterday, and it's a about 1 1/2 feet deep in it today again! Tn swamp clay is the slipperiest stuff on earth when wet! I have to planting some more veggy plants also. Wife has to stop buying them.

Here's the numbers from mine.

The pump bottom to bolt holes is: .337

The block to gear is: .363

The block to gear hole is: 2.592

2.592 - .363 makes the drive gear 2.229 tall

Thanks, Pat
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling cam, in frame Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think were getting the measuring confused. Try turning your inj pump upside down and put the drive gear in the pump shaft slot and measure from the base of the inj pump to the bottom end of the drive gear. Then measure from the pump mounting surface of the block to the top end of your oil pump where the hex drive installs. That will give you the difference, or space, between the two. While you have your hex driveshaft out make sure its in good shape and see if someone made it out of a hex key wrench. It needs to have good edges and the ends are tapered a certain way when the factory made them, and be the right length. I know when that gear slides in the hole it moves quite a number of degrees. I have to see a man about a dog right now. I will check mine later.
 
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