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Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414


 
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ironandsteel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote




On my first attempt at starting this tractor, I got no compression on 2 cylinders. Upon removing the valve cover, I discovered this mess. I know the history of this tractor. It sat unused in my brother's garage for about a decade, after several years unused outside. I had no idea it was this bad.

I'm going to pull the head and clean this all up, and probably take to a machine shop to make it right. No idea yet how worn the valve seats and guides are.

Do you think it would be worth having hardened valve seats put in?

Then, I'll pull the pan and see what horrors await me down there. Once this is all cleaned up, I'm thinking kerosene in the sump and crank it over a bunch to circulate. I gotta get the crud out of all the oil journals.
 
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Steve@Advance
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm assuming this is a gas engine.

It may already have hard exhaust seats. Depending on what it will be used for, hard seats are really only necessary for hard use. If it's working days are over no need for seats unless there is a problem with what's there.

If you're taking the pan off, might want to go ahead and pull the pistons, take a look at the rings to be sure they are not stuck. It would be a good opportunity to go ahead and replace them if in the budget. Not sure if that engine has wet sleeves, but if it does the orings may need to be replaced, could start leaking when disturbed.

Kearo in the sump won't do much good. Any hard deposits will only get washed to the end of the galley and that's where they will stay, weather it be a restriction or a bearing journal. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to flush, just clean up the sump, take the oil pump and pick up tube off, disassemble and clean thoroughly.
 
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Stephen Newell
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It doesn't look like gunk to me, it looks like rust. If that is what it is I think it's so bad the head isn't salvageable. Kerosene won't cut dried on gunk very good. I would use a mixture of acetone and toluene. It still would take a lot of flushing.
 
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ironandsteel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I just now took a hand held wire brush and scrubbed the rockers with it. The gunk comes right off and reveals nice looking iron rockers- I didn't see any rust. A couple valves are stuck.

The brown cast in the photos is brought out by the camera flash.

When I pull the head, I'll see how the valve guides and seats look. If not bad, I may just clean it up and put back together.

This tractor has 1227 hours and was never farmed. It was used very lightly over the years with a rock rake or a rear blade for cleaning up driveways and snow removal. I plan to use it for hauling round bales, running a wood splitter with its remote hydraulics, maybe some bush hogging.
 
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Steve@Advance
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You might get lucky and get the valves freed up. I've broke them loose with penetrating oil and driving a screw driver between the coils.

If you keep the shop vac running while scraping the rust it won't get so much down in the engine.

Do you think the rust came from a blown head gasket or from stored outside? Unless there is reason to believe the gasket is bad, it might clean up without pulling the head.
 
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ironandsteel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Steve@Advance wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:35:53 10/09/1Cool You might get lucky and get the valves freed up. I've broke them loose with penetrating oil and driving a screw driver between the coils.

If you keep the shop vac running while scraping the rust it won't get so much down in the engine.

Do you think the rust came from a blown head gasket or from stored outside? Unless there is reason to believe the gasket is bad, it might clean up without pulling the head.


There really isn't any rust, or not much anyway. The camera makes it look brown like rust, but in person it doesn't look that way. The browness does seem to be from moisture, though. Like when you have water in oil, it looks like chocolate milk.

I have no reason to think the head gasket is blown. The coolant looks perfect- nice green with oil droplets. Also, as I've said, this has been in the possession of my two brothers since about 1978 when my Dad died. He inherited the tractor from my uncle, who used it almost not at all. My brothers would have known if it had been blowing white smoke.

Just now, I pulled the manifolds- the bolts came out easily. I am going to pull the head because, why not- at this point it will be simple.
 
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ironandsteel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think the moisture in there is all from condensation, btw.
 
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Stephen Newell
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you are going to have a machine shop do a valve job you might just take the head like it is. They can clean it a lot easier than you can.
 
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ScottNC
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Once you have it running and it proves itself as sound, you might want to make the effort to ensure it has the right temp range thermostat. My old Ford would make the engine oil a white mayonnaise looking mess until a hotter stat was installed.
 
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derwen1959
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

if it was my tractor there is only one choice and that is total strip down of engine and do a full rebuild,
 
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GarryinNC
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Be sure and check your valve springs for any rust pits. Pitting will definitely cause one to fail. My dad had that happen in a Farmall MD. It bent the valve but did not harm piston. From what you have said, the springs may clean up and look good. Hope you have good luck with all of it.

Garry
 
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WGM
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ethanol?
 
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jacks
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Assuming that it is a gas engine, the
University of Pennsylvania AG Department
did an extensive study some years ago of
the effects of unleaded gas on 50s and 60s
model Truck and Tractor gasoline engines to
investigate valve seat recession. They
documented thousands of hours of operation
on various older model gasoline engines.
The only problem they found with
accelerated valve seat recession was on
engines that were operated at relatively
high RPM, 3000 to 4000 or more RPM. If your
valve seats can be used as is or reground I
don't think you would gain anything from
hardened valve seats.
 
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Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

ironandsteel wrote:
(quoted from post at 22:40:36 10/08/1Cool


On my first attempt at starting this tractor, I got no compression on 2 cylinders. Upon removing the valve cover, I discovered this mess. I know the history of this tractor. It sat unused in my brother's garage for about a decade, after several years unused outside. I had no idea it was this bad.

I'm going to pull the head and clean this all up, and probably take to a machine shop to make it right. No idea yet how worn the valve seats and guides are.

Do you think it would be worth having hardened valve seats put in?

Then, I'll pull the pan and see what horrors await me down there. Once this is all cleaned up, I'm thinking kerosene in the sump and crank it over a bunch to circulate. I gotta get the crud out of all the oil journals.



A mess like that doesn't just randomly happen.


There was either a LOT of blowby that condensed due to short run times and/or a failed or missing t-stat, lack of oil changes at reasonable intervals, or coolant finding it'ss way to the "basement", then evaporating.
 
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ironandsteel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Extremely gunked up rocker assy - IH B414 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bob wrote:


A mess like that doesn't just randomly happen.

There was either a LOT of blowby that condensed due to short run times and/or a failed or missing t-stat, lack of oil changes at reasonable intervals, or coolant finding it'ss way to the "basement", then evaporating.


I have the head off. No signs of failure in the head gasket. What I'm finding very odd is this. The 4th push rod from the front has rust on it- the others do not. The 4th valve (an exhaust) is totally frozen. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are almost frozen up but I can tap them back and forth.

Looking from the bottom, I see some light rust on the cam lobe for that 4th valve.

So- it looks like water somehow trickled down the 4th push rod, and the 4th valve got rustier than the others. I don't see how this could happen.

The good news is that the cylinders look fine. No ridge- just carbon buildup. So I won't need to hone and do rings. But I will have to take out the cam and tappetts and clean really well in that area and I'm not sure how I'm going to do that.
 
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