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Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function

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Ty Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ok, so a few months ago I replaced the pto clutch in my 8000 and the pto, dual power, remotes and 3 point would not do anything. It was like the hydrolic pump lost it's prime. After tearing it apart 4 times and reassembling it, it finally just started working (everything). I have not idea why or what I did different. I just kept putting grease in the pump hoping it would help create a suction. Everything worked fine until I went to use it yesterday. I had ran it the day before just fine and parked it. Came back the next day and now nothing works again. Can these pumps just lose their prime? I could understand it might lose it's prime by tearing it apart but not just sitting there. I don't think it could just break overnight. Is there some way to prime the pump without tearing it apart again. Anyone have any ideas?
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm not familiar with the hydro system on an 8000.. but can you pressurize the sump with an air blow gun with a rubber tip.. perhaps in a dipstick or check plug hole while it is running and should be pumping?

Soundguy
 
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RodinNS
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'd keep the air pressure away before it f***s something else. It's a gear pump. It self primes. If there's no oil flow, there's something wrong.
I'd suspect that the problem is not in the pump at all, but rather in an unloading valve somewhere that unloads the pump flow when there is no system demand.
That's assuming that there isn't a torn or buggered o-ring from all the times the pump has been apart...
I'm not right familiar with the 8000, bu Ford had a habit of following much the same design in all their tractors and scaling it for size. I'd expect to find a Plessey gear pump in there, and if that's the case, Plessey pumps are pretty simple. If the bushings aren't worn out and the housings cut away, just look at the seal conditions. O-rings need to be good and not mashed out too bad; lip seals need to seal and not be torn...
If that's all good, put it back together without the grease.
The next step would be to get a Ford OEM service manual and learn the hydraulic schematics for that tractor. I'd expect that there is an unloading valve above the pump that will unload the pump flow, and I'd expect that valve to be stuck open or in unload. That would be why nothing works. In lieu of that I would remove the relief valve and check that there isn't a spec of dirt in that holding it off it's seat. That could bleed an amazing amount of oil away.
Another possibility if the PTO or DP were not working would be a sheared pump drive through the transmission.
You need a book to study the system and figure out where the problem is at. Bern (and a couple others) could fill you in on many details of the 8000/9000 if they happen along. I know very little about them.

Rod
 
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Ty Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks Rod, There is one O' ring that the suction hose feeds into and when it didn't work the first time I put it back together I thought that I might of damage it or it slipped out when I put it back together. However that wasn't the case when I torn it apart. I have read that dam manual serveral times but couldn't find any thing like the situation I have now and had before. Tore apart the relief valve too and replace the ball it seats on that didn't help either. The pump is a gear pump. I never could figure out why it worked back in May after the 4th time of putting it back together but it did. Baled hay all summer and then started farming. Why would you stay away from the air? How about adding extra fluid to try to get the prime back.
 
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Ty Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ok, this may be a dumb question but I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying I should pressurize the transmission, where the pump is located with air through the fluid check level bolt? What will this do? Seems like it might cause the pump to suck air instead of fluild. What about trying to overfill the reservoir with a few extra gallons of fluid.
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

He doesn't want to introduce air into the pump and valving system itself.

My previous message to you was not to get you to pressurize the pump.. but the sump itself.. however.. if it is a gear pump.. it won't need it.. it should self prime, as Rod said. That is.. if it isn't worn out... if it is worn.. it will need servicing

Soundguy
 
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Dave in MS
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Pay attention to what Rod said. While hydraulic systems seem complex, their principle of operation is fairly simple. When a pump loses it's prime, it is either not pumping due to mechanical failure, or it has air leaking into the circuit. No magic, just common sense. Air leaks result from bad seals, bad O rings, faulty gaskets, or stuck or dirty valves. If the pump is good, and you know it is rotating, you need to find where the air is getting into the system.
BTW, when Sounder said to put air into the housing, he meant the hydraulic reservoir. If your tractor's tranny is a part of that reservoir, then presssurize it. Dont use a lot of pressure. Just enough ( 10 or 15 psi) to force fluid into the pickup. You don't want to blow any gaskets or sals out. BTW, adding more fluid isn't going to help unless the level is too low to begin with, which is possible if it was leaking out while you were running the tractor in May.
 
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Old Ford Mechanic
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ty,Does your tractor have a hydraulic filter located behind the step on the drivers side of the rearend housing? And have you had the pump apart? Those pumps for the most part were throw aways.In other words not rebuilable.They would do what you are describing sometimes when the endplates wore.If it starts working again stick a 3000lb. pressure guage into one of the remote outlets.When you activate the remote you need at least 2000lbs. at operating temp.of the oil.The pressure will be higher when the oil is cold.But if you don't have 2000lbs.then you may as well put a new pump in it.The reason i ask about the filter is because the first 8000's did not have a hydraulic filter.They were all recalled and had updates performed on the hydraulic system and brakes.The filter system was added at that time.The later 8000's from around mid 1969 and up had the filter system from the factory.A few of the early ones never got the update work performed.If you can't get the pump to work again pull it out and check all the piping and oring's.If nothing is found there then,i would go ahead and install a new pump.I am assuming you have the correct oil installed and have checked your filter,if it has one?
 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ty,One more thing.Rod touched on it in his post.At least part of that system is driven by a shaft that is driven off the engine crankshaft.The shaft is splined into a hub that is bolted to the crank along with the flywheel.The shaft then runs through the inside of one of the transmisson shafts and turns either the hydraulic pump or the "piggy back"pump that is mounted to the main pump.It has been several years since i've been in one and i can't remember which one that shaft drives.But i remember an 8600 that went to a local tractor pull.It hooked up and just started with the sled and quit pulling.It came to my shop and i found that the splines were rolled off this shaft where it splined with the hub in the flywheel.No splines equaled no dual power pressure.One shaft and hub later i had him back in field.Its been years since i have been inside one of these tractors but maybe some of what i've told you will help.Bern is very familar with the larger Fords and hopefully he will see this and give some advice also.Good Luck.
 
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billyar
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Turn on the pto,then use the remote hold so it will dead head the pump, if the spines are bad on the flywheel hub the pto will stop turning you will probly hear a grinding sound you may not but pto will stop. mine did anyway
 
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Ty Lee
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bill, the pto will not work either becasue it is controlled by the same pump so I can't turn on the pto. Are you saying to turn it on even if it won't spin and then pull the remote lever? The tractor will move forward really slow for a short distance then it stops so the pump must be picking up a little fluid but not enough for anything else to work.
 
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RodinNS
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ok............ Now you're getting somewhere.
You have either a drive problem to the pump/PTO or the pump suction is blocked.
The pump on that tractor would be driven by an idler gear on the PTO shaft. The PTO/DP supply pump is a piggy back pump off the main pump. IT would take it's drive through the main pump but they are hydraulically separate aside from having a common sump.
I would check the suction tube however it goes down into the bottom of the tractor; check the end of it. There may be a strainer on there or it may simply be a tube lying in the bottom of the housing. That part I don't know.... Check it for obstructions, pinholes and bad o-rings.
While you have the pump out take a bar to the PTO shaft internally at the rear of the transmission and see if you can turn the shaft. You shouldn't be able to turn that shaft without rolling the engine. It's no use to watch it with the engine running because it'll likely freewheel from friction alone without a load. I'm sure you will find the problem in either of those two areas...

Rod
 
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Ty Lee
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Old Ford Mech, the tractor does have a hydraulic filter on the side. I have not torn the tractor apart or checked the filter since it broke this week. I hoping I would get some good advice or talk to someone who might know what is going on before I tore it apart again. My dad was driving the tractor when this happened. He said at first it was like the brakes were on when he went to drive it and he thought maybe something felt like it was binding up, then it went to hardy moving at all. I wonder if what he was feeling was that shaft binding up with the flywheel. If that is the case can I tell it is damaged through the side plate that the pump is connected to or do you have to spilt the tractor? What would cause that shaft to strip. All they were doing the day before was pulling a roller and it worked fine when they parked it that night.
 
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Ty Lee
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Rod, the tube has no screeen but it does have an o'ring where it goes into the pump which I replaced in May. The PTO does not turn when the tractor is running, not from friction nor turning it on. If I try to turn the PTO with the tractor not running and it does not turn over the motor then that means the splines or gone correct? However as I recall the PTO will not turn when the tractor is off due to the PTO break or is it just becasue I am working agains the motor, at least that is what I remeber from last time. I can't imagine the O'ring going out in a few months of use. Thanks for your info.
 
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RodinNS
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8000, hydrolic pump, tractor will not function Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You'll need to remove the hydraulic pump and attempt to turn the gear that drives the pump. That's attached to the PTO drive shaft ahead of the PTO clutch. You can't do this from the back of the tractor. It must be done through the pump opening.
You should not be able to turn that shaft. You're correct inthat it should be permanently fixed to the engine, so if the engine turns, that shaft turns.
If you're sure that the pump suction is fine, then I'd be looking at that drive shaft very carefully.

Rod
 
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