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Any help or ideas appreciated....

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NCWayne
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A buddy of mine has an old L35 Sperry New Holland skid steer. He's a young guy, currently out of work ((((laid off when the company he was working for got caught not removing asbestos from a demo job, and OSHA/the EPA kicked the company off the site)))) and he's trying to get his machine to do what he needs it to do, wihtout breaking the bank. Basically he's has gotten alot of calls wanting property cleared either with a mulching head or a flail mower, etc. Basically he needs aux hydraulic hookups,to run any of the powered attachments, but it has none. It has a two spool Cessna valve and he needs a power beyond cartridge for it to make that happen. Unfortunately they aren't available anymore from the mfg.

The easiest way to do it would be to find a cartridge, on the other hand we have also discussed finding a newer valve, with a power beyond, and rerouting the pressure line through it first, in effect making the main machine functions the 'aux power'. Like I said either way would work but finding the proper part would make things alot easier.

That said, my first question is does anyone know what model Cessna valve it used so we can begin a search that way, and/or where he might find a parts machine with the needed part.

Second thing. We've figured out how to make the low flow system work for most of what he's wanting, but he could really use the optional high flow if we could figure out how they did that. So, dose anyone have one of these machine with the high flow option, and if so do you know what is different? I can't understand how they get the extra flow and pressure out of the machine without increasing the engine HP, of if they worried about it. As it stands the standard flow works out somewhere around 25 HP. With only 37 available I can't figure out what they did to make the HP option usable with enough power left to make the machine move at the same time the aux was being used. Granted that might not be a problem with somehting like a broom, but with something like a trencher, mulching head, etc, it with little to no 'extra' HP available it would be way to easy to stall the machine if you hit a hard spot.

That all said we have discussed swapping out the VG4 with a V465D. That would give him a HP increase of around 18 HP, which would definately give the additional UMPH needed to run a high flow on the aux circuit. Too, I onc worked at a place where a customer had several V configuration Wisconsins, with turbos, on some concrete saws. I can't remember the model number on them, but I have never seen another since. Has anyone had any experience with these turbo'd engines, and if so which model was it ????

Ultimately any and all ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Wayne
 
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JD Seller
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If he can spend the money to switch engines why not use that money to just trade for a skid steer that has what he needs on it???

That L35 is an older skid steer, 1976-1982. It also was the smallest New Holland made at that time. It sounds like he is going to try to get a business started with it. He would be better off to have a better machine even if he had a payment. He would have something that would be much more reliable to use and keep working.

Used skid steers are a dime a dozen around here right now. Everyone wants a new one but almost no one wants a higher houred used one. The term higher hours is about anything over 2000 hours here. Just about every dealer has a lot full of used machine right now.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I see the main point here is "gotten a lot of calls". If he really has the work lined up it is a good time to step up to a newer, properly equipped, more reliable machine. I think that this is especially true given the time of year and the economic reports.
 
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Mike M
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Go rent a good one and get the jobs done.
 
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Lazy WP
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:26 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with the rest, but I would suggest a tracked one on top of newer. You just find so many more uses for it.
 
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Ken Macfarlane
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

As far as I know all high flow options require the larger pump.

As for the valve, I know cessna valves show up all the time in surplus centre and other hydraulic surplus sources.

You might be time and money ahead mounting a dedicated pump to another motor to power high flow implements or just trade/buy a machine with high flow.
 
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NCWayne
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments thus far, but ya'll seem to have overlooked the part about him not having much money, and presently being without a real job. Not having the money he can't foot the bill for another used machine (the one he has was bought for $800 several years ago to do a small job and other than needing a carb kit from sitting runs and operates just fine), and not having a job, or much money, finding someone to give him a loan is out of the question. As far as us taking about repowering it, I know where a V65D is sitting that can probably be bought relatively cheap should the need arise, but beyond that it's just talk at this point anyway because he couldn't afford to do that and get even the low flow stuff needed right now anyway. Like the old saying, "Talk is cheap" and at this point anything about repowering, itc is nothing but that.

As far as a rental, the cost to rent a machine, with the attachments he needs, is cost prohibitive unless he can pick up at least one BIG job every week. He and I have both run the numbers and the only way for him to get the small jobs, say an acre or less, that the majority of the calls are coming in for is for him to be able to use his own machine. Without that capability he has no choice but to quote the small jobs at a price where he can both rent the machine and make money too, and that just doesn't work out price wise to be affordable to the customer. Right now he has the machine, and he has a 3 point flail that we are going to convert with a quick attach plate and a hydraulic drive motor, to at least get him started, but even then we need a few parts. The parts we really need are relatively cheap and I am providing my labor free because he is a good friend and I want to see him make this work for himself. Right now this is the only way he is going to be able to get things going. Believe me he looked into a newer/used machine, and has plans to buy a tracked machine just as soon as funds allow, but right now he is missing out on work because having to tell someone that to mow/mulch an acre or two for them is going to cost them several thousand just for the rental, and then even more per hour to cover the cost of diesel, and put some money in his pocket at the end of the day too, just doesn't work. On top of that add on having to plan that any repairs needed to the rental machine with the mulchers, etc ((( at least through Bobcat, which is the only place around here currently renting these items, ie the mulcher and machine combo... they won't rent them seperatly))), that are needed while you are renting it are your responsibility also. So, if the last guy running it did somehting stupid it could very easily come back and haunt you while your using it and take every dime you had planned to make, and then some, to fix his screwup because it didn't show up until you had the machine.

In the end it all comes back to my origional post. We need to find a power beyond valve for his current machine. With it he can load up and do a day project for someone for a reasonable price and still make a profit. Too the smaller machine puts him in a position to do smaller jobs, be it mulching or running the flail, that most others in the business, at least around here, have no interest in, or can't do because their machinery is too big. This gives him a niche market to exploit that should keep him bush when others aren't doing anything based on everything we have seen over the past two months. So, again, any ideas or help pointing us to someone who might have the needed parts would be greatly appreciated.
 
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ss55
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Your friend will still need to be able to make the payments for a newer machine when the time comes to that. Why does he want to risk hurting his market by deastically under biding on the current jobs? Quote the jobs using rental machine prices and keep looking for full time work if the jobs don't come in.
 
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Stick welding
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The older NH's were not very heavy duty for industrial type work. They were more suited to farm chores. I would say spending anything to try and upgrade this machine is not worth it. Even with high flow, it needs to have the cooling capacity for continuous duty.
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A small tractor would have more power than a hyd. PTO. To get anywhere close you also need higher pressure around 3500 PSI. Have you priced out the hyd. motor you'd need? As much as you want to help him, he just plain doesn't have the right machine for the job. It's not even close actually. Sorry.
 
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Fritz Maurer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Wayne, here's something off the wall. Rather than make that machine run a hydraulically powered attachment, why don't you put an engine on a small rotary cutter? Wouldn't need to be a very big engine, either, if my sorry 9-N can handle a 5' Bush-Hog. I do not know how big that machine is, but it ought to handle a 5' mower with an engine. If you're talking about a flail mower, you're apparently not mowing anything heavier than a rose bush anyway, and a rotary cutter would give you that much more versatility. Unless he already purchased the hydraulic flail, and now you're stuck plumbing that machine.
 
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NCWayne
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

We've already found a bent axis piston motor from Surplis Center for less than $300 that will do the job just fine with his current machine. The way it works out he can get approx 25 HP hydraulic flow/pressure from his machine with the low flow setup, which should be plenty enough to do what he needs. Thing is when these machines were new they had everything from trenchers to backhoe attachments available for them so they were designed to run the attachments. The main difference between the older machines and the newer ones is that the newer ones can do the same job the old ones did a little faster due to the increased HP available to the attachment.
 
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NCWayne
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

He's not drastically underbidding the jobs by any means. Think about it like this, BIG companies have no problem paying BIG prices to get jobs done, but small companies/individuals can't pay BIG prices to get small jobs done. The end result is that there is a nich market that currently is not being taken care of around here. He has quoted several BIG jobs using a rental machine for a couple of realtors who need land cleared, and has them coming up in the next month or so. In the meantime he has been getting calls left and right to do an acre or two here, a quarter acre there, etc, etc, that he can't feasibly do because of the cost of a rental unit. As a result he has lost those jobs because he can't do them and the larger companies don't want to mess with them to begin with. One of the most common comments he has heard from the people who have called is that they can't believe he has even called them back because the 'others' they called never did. Granted he has had one or two that had very unrealistic ideas on how much it cost to do a job (ie- like $1400, all inclusive, to do 7 acres of heavy brush, and small trees. The best we've been able to figure things is about an acre a day on average for the jobs he has looked at so far. Most have no problem with $1400 to do an acre, but when the rental machine is running you $800 plus a day, then add in the cost of diesel, rain delays, etc, etc, etc, it's simply not feasible to rent a machine for a job of less than severel acres. Granted he want's the BIG jobs, but the little guy side of things is the side of the market he wants to corner.....and based on what I've seen and heard it can be quite lucrative, but only with your own machine, and no monthly payments eating up your profits......
 
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NCWayne
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Not off the wall at all, in fact we thought about that too. One thing is that he already has a three point flail that we are going to modify to fit the skid steer. He didn't pay alot for the flail like it is, and it needs alot of TLC, but given the outrageous prices being asked for even used flails, giving his some TLC is the only way for him to go right now.

That said, we had thought about an aux engine, but one problem there would be getting the high speed of the engine down to a speed workable with the flail (ie 3600 RPM down to around 2000 RPM) By doing that we'd be losing a good but of torque which would mean needing an even larger engine to insure the power was there to handle things. The larger engine would then be causing problems with the weight of the attachment. Basically by using the hydraulics the weight of the attachment would be lessened drastically without the addition of a complete engine, fuel source, etc, etc, as well as being a bit more reliable in that with a properly set relief valve the drum could be completely stalled without having to worry about using some sort of over running clutch, etc like you'd need to protect the engine.

Like I said though, it's not off the wall at all, and I appreciate you actually offering up sound advice and not just telling me why it can't be done.
 
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Fritz Maurer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Any help or ideas appreciated.... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I got the auxiliary engine idea from a device we used to put on the front of our Cat 950. It pinned on in the place of the bucket, had a 24" drum 6' wide, onto which about 100 free-swinging cutters were fastened. It was driven 1-to-1 by a 4-71. I gave that description to illustrate that I don't think you need all that much speed reduction. True, the 4-71 wasn't turning 3600, but almost certainly 2800. When I said 'auxiliary engine', I was actually thinking of something with a transmission on it. I'm thinking a 2300 Pinto motor with a C-3 automatic would fit very cleanly on the deck of a flail mower. The torque converter would also function as your cushion coupling.
 
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