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Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad


 
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kylemorley
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I was doing some reading on primers and was interested to find that Alkyd primers (the good ones sold by the industrial divisions of paint companies, or specialized suppliers like Zero Rust), not the hardware store stuff) are actually pretty good, especially for use over old paint and rust, on surfaces that are not cleaned to the white.

The alkyds apparently excel in a quality called "wetting out", that is, their ability to cover and penetrate so they tend to seal off rust and glue down any flaking old paint. Since they will be topcoated, Alkyd's main weakness, poor UV resistance and chalking, is not a problem. And they are real easy to touch up.

Just about all the big manufacturers have high performance alkyd primers in their lines, and they are often the recommended primer for use over old finishes, and as a primer for the urethane modified alkyds like Sher Kem, Moore M21 and Coronado Rust Skat.
 
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Stephen Newell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I kinda have a different opinion. I think an alkyd primer is better suited for industrial maintenance like painting an iron fence. A tractor or other vehicle is exposed to oil and chemicals which will lift an alkyd primer. An epoxy primer is resistant to these chemicals so I think is better for this application. I've never seen anything that will stick down loose paint. It may seem to but if the paint is failing the only real solution is to take it off especially since if the paint is failing in one spot and inch away there will be another spot poised to fail. Alkyd primers are certainly a lot simplier for the beginer to work as most work as primer and filler primer in one with no recoat window. The problem I see is it puts you back to repainting the tractor much sooner than if you used automotive coatings.
 
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Chase_99
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I know a little about the product Zero Rust as I've used it some. Its a little different then your typical Alkyd primer for one you need stronger solvents to thin it or for clean up, Xyelene or Laquer thinner is used.

Its a high solids coating (quarts are heavy) so it puts down a hard film when its fully dried. Its used in automotive restoration stuff (frames, floor boards etc. and industrail applications steel fab/welding etc for corrision resistance. I read once its fully dry its rated to be harder/stronger then catalyzed urethane coatings.

I don't know if its the ideal primer for a tractor hood or that its even intended/designed for that. If one was painting a steel utility trailer or something that is exposed to the road salt elements then proabably it would be a good idea to lay down ZR. Guys top coat it to get the color of choice and for for uv protection. ZR when dry isn't flat more like a satin finish but will fade in the sun. ZR sells a gloss clear coat for it also for uv protetion.

ZR can be top coated even with the strong solvent based urethane paints but if I was using a catalyzed paint like that on a tractor I'd use a catalyzed epoxy primer with it.
 


Last edited by Chase_99 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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Jason S.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Enamel primers were used for many years. The upside to it is it doesn't dry out and crack like laquer does. The downside is it takes several days to dry if you want to sand it before painting it. You can paint over some enamel primers after it flashes and the paint and primer slowly dries together. Most all paint manufacturers still have enamel primer/sealer available. In BASF go look at their Limco PS21 sealer, it is an enamel sealer you spray before topcoating and you can use either single stage or base clear over it. Alkyd enamel has gotten a bad rap over the last several years,especially thanks to Val Spar and a few others manufacturing sub par paint and primers for sale to the general public. The biggest problem with the alkyd paint you get today is in a gallon can you only get around half a can of color or pigment and the rest is mixing clear. Mixing clear doesn't have much uv protection or chemical resistance. The same holds true for acrylic or urethane paints. There is a reason why Nason is cheaper than Chroma base, Limco is cheaper than Diamont, Omni or Shopline is cheaper than Concept or Deltron. It's because you aren't getting the pigment with the cheaper lines that you get with the higher dollar lines. Now with all that being said am I saying enamel primer is better than epoxy? No I'm not, and I'm not saying Alkyd paint is better than urethane. But if I had to choose between using epoxy primer over clean and properly prepped metal and using cheaper paint, or using enamel primer over clean properly prepped metal and shooting urethane paint over it. I would go the second route every time.
 
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Chase_99
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Alkyd Primer - enamel paint jobs Reply to specific post Reply with quote

When it comes to the old school enamel paint jobs this thread on a car form is interesting http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/body/546612-ultimate-budget-paint-job.html

Where I guy took some Valspar tractor enamel and painted his car ending up with a nice finish for $70. From reading it sounded like he knew what he was doing, did a lot prep work, sanding and polishing etc.

I believe Valspar makes the implement paint for JD and CIH though it maybe a blended a little diff. for them I don't know. We all knock the old tractor enamel paint as it needs maintance to keep its shine. I have an old 1978 Case 2090 with original paint. Its white and gets dull and chalky but 10 minutes wih the power buffer every 2-3 years brings the shine back real nice.

Lots of guys still paint tractors with the dealer enamels. Alot of times to insure exact color match. Depends on how much you want to spend I guess. I've also heard of guys using JD green with hardener, let it dry good for a couple months, light sand and clear it with a good quality paint.
 
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Rod (NH)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad Reply to specific post Reply with quote

My very minimal experience with Zero Rust: I purchased a quart of grey ZR several years ago, likely from autobodystore.com as I also get my Picklex 20 from them. I thought I'd try it since the proprietor of autobodystore.com, along with others, were praising it at the time. Never again.

The ZR is high solids alright. Very heavily bodied. However, there are absolutely zero basic "how to" usage instructions on the can label except for very prominent "DO NOT THIN" lettering. What the ...? The stuff was so thick it wouldn't even brush well without thinning. About the only way ZR might be usable right of the can is with high pressure airless spray equipment.

I visited the ZR on-line site only to find that, yes, it could be thinned, and several acceptable thinning products were listed. However, there were no ratios given and the user was left to "thin as needed". Well, that information directly contradicts the label caution on the can! Unless one is used to using this product in a conventional automotive type spray gun, any thinning becomes somewhat of a trial and error process, not to mention the possibility of running afoul of any VOC regulations that might apply - if anyone cares about that.

I admit to being biased against a paint product where the most basic usage instructions are not provided by the manufacturer directly on the can label. That information should minimally include specifically recommended thinning product(s), if needed, along with appropriate mix ratios and any recommended or optional additives and their mix ratios. I find it very misleading to have manufacturer's on-line usage "recommendations" directly contradict, in a very fundamental way, what is specified on the can label. That's simply unacceptable to me and I have no use for any manufacturer that does it. ZR may be the best product in the world but I will never buy any more of it or recommend it to others.
 
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Chase_99
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Alkyd Primer - maybe not so bad Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Rod (NH) wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:03:20 04/27/13) My very minimal experience with Zero Rust: I purchased a quart of grey ZR several years ago, likely from autobodystore.com as I also get my Picklex 20 from them. I thought I'd try it since the proprietor of autobodystore.com, along with others, were praising it at the time. Never again.

The ZR is high solids alright. Very heavily bodied. However, there are absolutely zero basic "how to" usage instructions on the can label except for very prominent "DO NOT THIN" lettering. What the ...? The stuff was so thick it wouldn't even brush well without thinning. About the only way ZR might be usable right of the can is with high pressure airless spray equipment.

I visited the ZR on-line site only to find that, yes, it could be thinned, and several acceptable thinning products were listed. However, there were no ratios given and the user was left to "thin as needed". Well, that information directly contradicts the label caution on the can! Unless one is used to using this product in a conventional automotive type spray gun, any thinning becomes somewhat of a trial and error process, not to mention the possibility of running afoul of any VOC regulations that might apply - if anyone cares about that.

I admit to being biased against a paint product where the most basic usage instructions are not provided by the manufacturer directly on the can label. That information should minimally include specifically recommended thinning product(s), if needed, along with appropriate mix ratios and any recommended or optional additives and their mix ratios. I find it very misleading to have manufacturer's on-line usage "recommendations" directly contradict, in a very fundamental way, what is specified on the can label. That's simply unacceptable to me and I have no use for any manufacturer that does it. ZR may be the best product in the world but I will never buy any more of it or recommend it to others.


The cans i have brush on and spray on fine (HVLP) like your typical akyld paint. I can't remember how much I thinned to spray it but for brushing I just used it straight out of the can.
 


Last edited by Chase_99 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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