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Injector issues...diagnosis


 
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steve terplak
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Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hey guys,
I took my Massey 1080 out to mow recently, it is a Perkins 318 4 cyl diesel, and it sounded like it was running on 3 cyl, it was a little under powered and seemed to be putting a little extra smoke out while running...
so I figured injector issue...

I was told the best procedure for diagnosis was to crack the fuel line to each injector with the engine running and, whichever injector line being loosened did not make the engine worse...that was your problem. Then, once the culprit is identified, switch it with a different injector and make sure that it is the injector and not something in the cylinder.

So...did just that, cracked the fuel lines one at a time...and it was the injector closest to the front of the tractor that was the problem.
Then switched that with the one next to it and that is where the issues got worse.

The problem stayed at the front cylinder and the "bad" injector worked in cylinder #2...
further, now instead of just running rough and getting some extra smoke, the tractor began making a wheezing sound like air/fuel was escaping at the injector location in cylinder #1.

So.
What to do now?
When we switched the 2 injector, a copper ring came out with the 1st injector but not with the 2nd, it stayed in the hold.
we moved the copper ring off of injector #1 and put it on #2 and put 1 in the hole with copper ring #2.
Could we have contaminated the seating of the injector and that is why we are getting the blowby? Could the removal of the injector have knocked crud off of it and that is why the problem seems to not have moved with the injector? Do we have a problem in the cylinder?
Where else could the problem lie? Are we missing something (fuel line perhaps)

We have decent mechanical skills but are not mechanics and, if the problem is greater than injectors we would be shipping it off to a "professional"...I am of the opinion that we are better off quitting while ahead at this point and letting someone else take a look, my dad thinks we should repeat our process from yesterday and try to get everything back to the condition we started with...

thoughts?
 
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ohiojim
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Joined: 12 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

i think dads right.....
 
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steve terplak
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Get back to running on 3 cyl with no blow by...what is the next step from there? Problem seems to not have followed injector...
 
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Billy J Shafer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Try flipping the copper ring over. You have messed up the seal surface most likely. I have had good luck with flipping the seal.I would also remove the valve cover. Check the valves on the bad cylinder. You may have a stuck valve
 
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rustred
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

compression check.
 
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showcrop
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Joined: 13 Dec 2000
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Location: Chester NH

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote


When I remove injectors I have a vacuum cleaner, and dental pic at hand. I vacuum around first to get the area clean, then after injector removal if the sealing ring doesn't come out I retrieve it with the pic. I vacuum again after pulling the injector. I fit some vinyl tubing to the vacuum to fit into the bore. Your dentist gets pics refurbished but is still constantly replacing them.
 
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Dieseltech
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Have you pulled the valve cover to check for rocker damage, or adjustment may have came loose. A compression test as mentioned before is a good place to start.
 
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2badlybent
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Taking a compression test on a diesel engine can be dangerous if you do not know how or do not have the right equipment. I suspect that your problem is with the ejector pump and not just one cylinder. A weak pump will cause the problems you have described. Take it to a pro.
 
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ih_bug
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

take it back apart make sure every thing is perfectly clean heat the copper washers with a torch carefully you just want to soften them (they work harden in the head)if you can you should take all 4 injectors and have them tested. make sure everything is perfectly clean and torque the hold downs evenly. hopefully you just have a valve issue
 
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David G
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It does not have to be a fuel issue, it is a fuel delivery issue that could be caused by electronics. I would think the exhaust is OK if it runs on ether.

Take it to a Cummins shop before you ruin something.
 
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The JD Workmen
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If your having trouble with getting the copper washer out take a round file that fits the center of the copper washer and give it a slight twist and pull it out. Once you have the copper washer out feel both side edge with your finger. One edge should be sharp like a 90 degree edge and the other side should feel rounded over that is the side that should face down into the bore. The reason for this is the when the hole for the injector is cut it leaves a small radius at the bottom of the hole.
 
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JD Seller
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You need to pull the valve cover off before you really screw something up!!!

Your miss did not move with the injector. So the original problem is more than likely a mechanical one on the #1 cylinder. Check to see if you have a rocker arm or push rod fail. That is not uncommon on engines.

You air noise is the sealing ring leaking. That is not a serious issue. Like others have stated you just need to clean the injector hole and bottom seal up. I would look at the copper sealing washer. If it shows signs of being crushed just replace it. They are not very high maybe $2-3 each.

Your cylinder not firing is a more serious than the injector leaking.
 
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David G
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sorry, wrong post.
 
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bison
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Seems to me you have a injector sealing problem.
I would clean scrape the carbon out of the injector bore and turn the engine over with the starter to blow it out.
If you heat up the copper washer cherrie red and dunk it in a pail of water it will restore it to original softness and can be used again..
You may also be able to test the suspected injector by bolting it back injection line keeping the nozzle out in the open and fire the engine up and observe what kind of spray comes from the nozzle.
Otherwise take the injector to a diesel shop to have it tested.
May as well take all 4.
 
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samn40
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Injector issues...diagnosis Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Check for bubbles in your rad or white/creamy oil in the sump. Some of these engines had a tendancy to blow head gaskets.
Sam
 
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