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Which Pertronix electronic kit to get


 
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:34 am    Post subject: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hello all, as you can see I'm new to the forum. My neighbor has a T020 that is real need of help. I believe the starter is not working. I got 12 volt conversion kit to switch it to 12V from 6V. I will try and get it running again with the point system but I believe I will switch it to electronic ing for him as well and was looking for a PN or name to get. Figured I'd use the knowledge base for some help.

Also, today I'm picking up a T035 Diesel, 1959 vintage and I'm sure I have a number of questions once I'm able to really look it over. Main concern on that one is the glow plugs, they aren't working. Other owner has been starting with starting fluid which I don't like to do if I can help it.

Dennis
 
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Jason S.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The pertronix you need is sold on this site. Part number 1143. Somebody else will have to help you with the diesel if it's a standard diesel engine. They are well known for being hard to start although some have been able to fix them to where they start easily.
 
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thank you
 
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Bob (Aust)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Doc. The Pertronix units are very sensitive to voltage and polarity. Reverse the polarity and you will fry the unit.

Make sure the unit you buy suits your required polarity (usually negative to ground) and your 12 volt conversion.

You will be delighted with the result, although you won't get the full benefit unless you also change the coil for a high voltage coil.

Bob in Oz
'53 TEA20
 
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

My plan is to do the 12v electrical conversion first to just get it running. I don't know for sure if the starter is out or if it's the solenoid, starter button..... The wiring is a mess. the exhaust manifold is broken off so there is no muffler and when is was running it sounded like is was only running on 2-3 cylinders at best. The throttle linkage is broken under the dash so it only ran at idle. Like I said this tractor needs some help. He's 69 years old, retired, wife passed about 2 years ago now and he has helped me so much clearing my land this is the least I can do for him. He has 2 other tractors, a 424 International and a Ford 8N. We were using the International to pull stumps for a while then I bought a used JD 450C loader crawler with 4:1 bucket. Needless to say the size and number of stumps we could pull in a days time went up dramatically. He has about 20 acres to clear as well of which I am helping him with if it would quite raining and dry up that is..

Thank you for the info it's appreciated.
 
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Jason S.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A TO-20 will not have a solenoid unless someone has added one to it. It has a switch that is on the bell housing. The hot battery cable runs to one side and a cable comes off the other side and runs to the starter. When you move the shifter to the S position the shifter linkage pushes up on the switch on the bell housing and completes the circuit. If someone has added a solenoid to it I would remove it and use the original starting system for two reasons. It"s a simpler system and there is less to trouble shoot if something goes wrong and it is safer. You can"t crank the tractor in gear with the original system. All the wiring diagrams you need can be found at FENA. Ferguson Enthusiasts of North America. It"s under the resources tab. http://fergusontractors.org/fena/
 
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Bob (Aust)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Doc. As Jason says, no solenoid. The "S" position on the transmission activates a mechanical starter switch in the bell housing. The switch may require adjustment - loosen the screws and it will move forward or backwards to adjust the contact.



Bob in Oz
'53 TEA20
 
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thank You I will go to the FENA site and look at the electrical diagrams. I seen him yesterday and he did get the starter fixed. The person that fixed the starter told him NOT to convert it to a 12 volt system because it will either break the shaft on the starter or the ring gear. I believe either could happen unless one of two things aren't changed. 1) use a smaller battery with a lower CCA value. 2) reduced the cable size running from the battery to the starter. What is the general consensus for either of those two options?

BTW it does have a solenoid that has been added. I will remove for safety reasons when I rewire it.
 
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Bob (Aust)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Doc. The 6 volt starters seem to take 12 volts without too many problems, provided they are not cranked over for long periods of time, and given time to cool between starts.

Quote:
"1) use a smaller battery with a lower CCA value. 2) reduced the cable size running from the battery to the starter."


Neither of those attempts to reduce the current (amperage) will make the least bit of difference. It is the 12 volts that may cause problems.

I know a lot of guys convert to 12 volts but I really wonder if it is necessary? If your battery is the largest that will fit; battery leads are the largest cable size you can get; battery to starter leads are connected near the starter, not behind the dash; electrical connections are all very clean and shiny; starter motor and generator are both in good condition, particularly the brushes; engine is correctly tuned; and you have Pertronix ignition, the tractor should be fine starting and running on 6 volts.

I have seen a 6 volt Fergy modified to having two large 6 volt batteries in parallel (6 volt output) fitted inside one rear mud guard with very thick leads to the starter. (The diesel Ferguson TEF20 had batteries fitted inside one rear mud guard.)

Right up to the 1950s Ford V8 engines had 6 volt ignition and how many 6 volt flat head V8's were fitted to military vehicles during the war? Volkswagons were 6 volt batteries for many years. I remember seeing a late 1930s Lincoln Zephyr with V12 side valve engine, starting and running from 6 volts.

Is a 12 volt conversion really necessary if the tractor is maintained and kept tuned?

Bob in Oz
'53 TEA20
 


Last edited by Bob (Aust) on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks Bob. From your response it is my understanding then that the Pertronix will work with 6 volt system as well then?
 
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Bob (Aust)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Steady on Doc!!! Laughing

No, a Pertronix Ignitor is not "multi voltage". You need to decide whether you intend staying with six volts or converting to 12 volts, staying with positive ground, or converting to negative ground, then buying a 6 volt or 12 volt Pertronix kit to suit.

I also suggest a Pertronix high voltage coil (up to 45,000 volts), which with the Pertronix ignitor, delivers around four times the spark voltage to the spark plugs.

Bob in Oz
 


Last edited by Bob (Aust) on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

[quote="Bob (Aust)"](quoted from post at 23:48:13 01/20/14) Steady on Doc!!! Laughing

Roger that..... I will need to see which direction he wants me to pursue. As you can tell I'm a little wet behind the ears when it comes to some of this but I'm no stranger to building stuff like this.
But I've been doing other stuff for quite some time. This is the engine bay of my 94 Impala SS.
 
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Red_Chili
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

FWIW, my TO20 was a very difficult starter with a not so good idle. Pretty much everything was borderline. The starter would spin slow, the battery would draw down, and finally the starter switch died. A carb clean resulted in... no change.

So... one new carburetor, one new starter switch, new battery leads, one new Pertronix coil and ignition (12v neg gnd) and the largest battery I could fit resulted in better starts but it would still crank slow and draw down the battery. I figured the starter windings had shorted from cranking too long, so I bit the cost of a new 6v starter.

You TOUCH the starter now and BAM it fires up. VERY little dwell time on the starter, I figure it hardly heats at all even with max CCA and 12v. Heat is what kills motors and resistance and voltage drop means the starter spins slower, but LONGER and HOTTER. I expect this starter will last a very long time, and the tractor starts like (in my mind) a machine should. I"m fussy that way.

Nice SS BTW! I have a blown 3.4L 1987 Toyota 4Runner with a solid axle on 35s. I get the motorhead thing.
 
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Jason S.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote


It's usually the soldered connection inside the starter where the battery cable post goes thru that breaks as a result of people tightening the cable without using a back up wrench to hold the stud. That and using too small gauge cables and using the original battery ground to the dash will result in a dragging starter. I crank my TO-20 in 20 degree weather with 6 volts and have no problems.
 
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Red_Chili
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Which Pertronix electronic kit to get Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jason S. wrote:
(quoted from post at 17:26:52 02/04/14)
It's usually the soldered connection inside the starter where the battery cable post goes thru that breaks as a result of people tightening the cable without using a back up wrench to hold the stud. That and using too small gauge cables and using the original battery ground to the dash will result in a dragging starter. I crank my TO-20 in 20 degree weather with 6 volts and have no problems.

That would explain an open or resistive connection... but in my case, the starter had the opposite issue: drew LOTS of current and sucked down the battery while not spinning very rapidly.
 
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