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9N will NOT Start!

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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hello Gents,
New contributor here. First thank you all, I’ve gotten a lot of good info from your past posts which have helped a lot but now I’m stumped. I have had my 9N (S/N 85732) about 10 years now and it has been getting progressively harder to start over the last 2 years or so. Past starts have required cleaning or replacing points each time I ran it (points are not burned and have no visible deposits on them?) and jumping with 12 volt battery. Last successful start was back in August. Since then I’ve put in 20+ hours of tinkering including installing a 6V pos ground Pertronix Elec Ignition (EI) with no luck. Tractor is stock except for electronic ignition (front mount coil). I have fuel, spark and compression but still will not fire (or even cough!) I’m no professional wrench but I consider myself an adequate shade tree mechanic. Here is what I’ve tried:
1. Read 75 tips (great info)
2. New battery (Deka)
3. 3 New cables all 0 gage or heavier (pos, neg bat and starter cables)
4. New rotor and cap
5. 2 New coils ( Resistance; .8 (original), 1.2, and 2.1 ohms)
6. New plugs
7. New condenser & points (after failed to start with EI)
Results:
8. Starter turns over motor normally (12 volt jump achieves 1/3 higher rpm)
9. Good Spark at all cylinders with test plug set at ¼ inch and with stock gapped plugs (slightly better spark with 12 V crank)
10. Good fuel at carb drain (steady stream for 30+ seconds)
11. No luck with starting fluid sprayed into carb or directly into #2 or #3 cylinder
12. Static timing checked correct at ¼” past upper bolt hole
13. Suction at carb and compression at plug holes when cranked (no compression gage but blew my finger off hole)
14. With EI, 6.15 V at ignition module, 2.34 V at top of coil
I’m tired of cutting my field with a scythe (I really did!) and shoveling my driveway while the 9N sits in the barn. Any ideas (or offers to take it off my hands!) are greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Ray
 
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2n4000
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:24 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

didn't see anything about weak sister ignition switch
 
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jerrybigrig
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Check for voltage drop between ign start side and hot wire
going into coil ......you hold meter between start or run side of
se and hot wiwe of coil and have someone else crank over eng
and see if you have near battery volts (good)or none(bad) if bad
look for broken or loose connection .
 
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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

2n4000 wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:24:14 02/13/14) didn't see anything about weak sister ignition switch


I've just been jumping the ign sw to eliminate that possibility but given I have good spark at the plugs I don't see how that could be it. Still appreciate the ideas though! Thanks
 
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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jerrybigrig wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:28:28 02/13/14) Check for voltage drop between ign start side and hot wire
going into coil ......you hold meter between start or run side of
se and hot wiwe of coil and have someone else crank over eng
and see if you have near battery volts (good)or none(bad) if bad look for broken or loose connection .


Thanks Jerry. With the points system installed I've followed the attached Ignition Resistance Test and came up with nominally "normal" results everywhere. I didn't try it while cranking the motor but it seems to me if you go from ign sw to coil (top contact) accross the resistor you should get 3V+ drop. What am I missing?
Also with Elec Ign installed, polarity is reversed by design. ie. neg lead to ign modual (6V) then from coil post through ballast resistor to pos ground. In this case I get 6V at ign modual and 2.75V at top of coil?
I'll try the cranking test but first I have to shovel the new 8 inches of snow to get to the barn!!
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jerrybigrig wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:28:28 02/13/14) Check for voltage drop between ign start side and hot wire
going into coil ......you hold meter between start or run side of
se and hot wiwe of coil and have someone else crank over eng
and see if you have near battery volts (good)or none(bad) if bad
look for broken or loose connection .
One of my pet peeves. People assume that whatever they are familiar with transfers to any other tractor out there, so they provide some supposedly helpful hint that is not only NOT helpful, but most likely confuses the issue or at best wastes the troubleshooter's time. Here, there is NO SUCH WIRE as he is being directed to check, i.e., from ignition switch to coil. Such simply does not exist where EI is installed on a 6v, POS gnd N tractor. You are not alone. Probably see it at least weekly! That is one of several reasons that I ask so many questions & do my best to avoid 'answering' questions where I do not KNOW what is being discussed. That is correct, I don't assume that an engine, an ign, a tractor, a truck, etc. is a generic engine, ign, tractor, truck, where one size fits all.
 
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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jerrybigrig wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:28:28 02/13/14) Check for voltage drop between ign start side and hot wire
going into coil ......you hold meter between start or run side of
se and hot wiwe of coil and have someone else crank over eng
and see if you have near battery volts (good)or none(bad) if bad
look for broken or loose connection .


This time with the attachment!!


 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Seems like you have covered most bases. That said, fuel to & out carb drain does not mean any fuel reaches cylinders. One way to test that is to use starting fluid, which you did, BUT, if previous starting attempts flooded the engine & washed down the plugs with liquid gasoline, then the contaminants will often leak off the spark energy without producing a spark. Fresh plugs or burn existing plugs off with a propane torch & re-try starting fluid with gasoline valve turned OFF.
Your numbers look nominally OK, either points or EI. You have a good spark, so no need to root around in that area anyway.
One uncovered base is likely a long shot, but I don't know the total history since last ran. That is when is the spark occurring? Yes, I saw the 1/4 inch timing note, but there is still plenty of opportunity for the spark to NOT be occurring at TDC-compression stroke. Need to verify that. A starting point would be that wires in distributor are CCW, 1243 and cylinders are numbered 1234 radiator toward steering wheel.

 


Last edited by JMOR on Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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HCooke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What is the temperature? Maybe warming up the
manifold would help volatize the gas. Also as JMOR
said the plugs may be fouled.
 
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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

JMOR wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:44:28 02/13/14) Seems like you have covered most bases. That said, fuel to & out carb drain does not mean any fuel reaches cylinders. One way to test that is to use starting fluid, which you did, BUT, if previous starting attempts flooded the engine & washed down the plugs with liquid gasoline, then the contaminants will often leak off the spark energy without producing a spark. Fresh plugs or burn existing plugs off with a propane torch & re-try starting fluid with gasoline valve turned OFF.
Your numbers look nominally OK, either points or EI. You have a good spark, so no need to root around in that area anyway.
One uncovered base is likely a long shot, but I don't know the total history since last ran. That is when is the spark occurring? Yes, I saw the 1/4 inch timing note, but there is still plenty of opportunity for the spark to NOT be occurring at TDC-compression stroke. Need to verify that. A starting point would be that wires in distributor are CCW, 1243 and cylinders are numbered 1234 radiator toward steering wheel.


Thanks Guys, I did verify the correct firing order and have tried both burning the plugs and brand new ones. I havent manually verified TDC (old screw driver in the cylinder trick i guess?) but will. Two questions:
1. Have you ever heard of the camshaft gear stripping/skipping/breaking? There have been no unusual noises while cranking etc but just a thought
2. Is it worth trying to adjust the static timing so it's significantly before or after TDC? as I recall (but not sure)original points were adjusted way up (ie advanced) almost to limit of adj travel

BTW, it's a balmy 22 deg here today, 15 deg warmer than last week or so. Maybe the heater???
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ray PA wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:23:12 02/13/14)
JMOR wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:44:28 02/13/14) Seems like you have covered most bases. That said, fuel to & out carb drain does not mean any fuel reaches cylinders. One way to test that is to use starting fluid, which you did, BUT, if previous starting attempts flooded the engine & washed down the plugs with liquid gasoline, then the contaminants will often leak off the spark energy without producing a spark. Fresh plugs or burn existing plugs off with a propane torch & re-try starting fluid with gasoline valve turned OFF.
Your numbers look nominally OK, either points or EI. You have a good spark, so no need to root around in that area anyway.
One uncovered base is likely a long shot, but I don't know the total history since last ran. That is when is the spark occurring? Yes, I saw the 1/4 inch timing note, but there is still plenty of opportunity for the spark to NOT be occurring at TDC-compression stroke. Need to verify that. A starting point would be that wires in distributor are CCW, 1243 and cylinders are numbered 1234 radiator toward steering wheel.


Thanks Guys, I did verify the correct firing order and have tried both burning the plugs and brand new ones. I havent manually verified TDC (old screw driver in the cylinder trick i guess?) but will. Two questions:
1. Have you ever heard of the camshaft gear stripping/skipping/breaking? There have been no unusual noises while cranking etc but just a thought
2. Is it worth trying to adjust the static timing so it's significantly before or after TDC? as I recall (but not sure)original points were adjusted way up (ie advanced) almost to limit of adj travel

BTW, it's a balmy 22 deg here today, 15 deg warmer than last week or so. Maybe the heater???
Yes, gears jump, slip, shear, etc. Don't worry with timing as far as run or not run, as the range of adjustment on these are so limited that they will run at just about any setting you try.
No screwdriver in cylinder as spark plug is over valves & not over piston. With a mirror & good light though you can observe the valves & even probe them with a stiff wire.


 
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old
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You need a good spark that jumps a gap of a 1/4 inch or more. Compression over 90PSI and fuel. So how is the compression?? How about the air cleaner when was the last time you cleaned it??
 
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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Thanks JMOR, Henry sure made troubleshooting this "simple" tractor quite hard!! I guess next step would be a compression check with actual gage (eliminate valve timing posibility) and verifying spark at TDC +/-. Can you "feel" the piston move with a stiff wire? Otherwise how do you manually verify TDC???
 
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Ray PA
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Good 1/4 inch spark with test plug at each cylinder. Air cleaner probably dirty but right now it is disconnected at carb for troubleshooting. Carb is pulling air in directly from atmoshere.
 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: 9N will NOT Start! Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you put your hand over the air intake of the carb do you get a good suction and do you get gas on your hand when doing so?? Need a good suction there for them to run since that is what pulls the fuel to the plugs
 
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