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#4 Injector line on Perkins


 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Its me again...I'm reachin' here but my 354 is still missing badly on # 2 hole...only thing I see is that my #4 injector line is damaged where it goes through its holder, any chance it can be slightly restricted and changing the fuel flow to the previous cylinder in the firing order, which would be #2? I've swapped injectors, changed timing, fresh rebuild, cannot get it to stop missing at high RPMS on # 2...If so anyone have a #4 or full set of injector lines for a 69 model 1850 Perkins?
 
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J. W. Schwiebert-2
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Have you checked the delivery valve for #2 cylinder? Remember each cylinder has one. We had one 2 years ago the timing mark on the flywheel was off. How did you check the timing ? I had one of those once and the timing marks were all lined up,but and it would miss. When I flow timed it was late. Maybe I will send you an e-mail if you want to talk to me. Let me know first. J.
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Feel free to email me l_stangler@hotmail.com I didn't check timing just went by the marks on the housing, they were lined up perfectly, I've retarded it considerable with no change. Can timing being off affect just one cylinder?
 
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Cas
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think not. In the pump the rotor clearance is measured at the factory with an air micrometer. It is in microns and can not be measured by micrometers or verniers. In the old days they would put a pile of rotors and rings on table. Then women that had a lot of experience fitting them matched them up. So, to shorten the post it can not leak between 2 and 4. The pump would have to be so bad the tractor would not even start.
It sounds like a timing problem.
Forget playing with the gears on front if they are as close as reasonably possible.
On the left front of the engine, ahead of the injection pump drive there are 4 5/16 bolts. Remove that cover and The are 3 allen bolts, loosen them. The little gear there has 3 slots in it try a few positions back and forth. Mark your starting point on the gear so you know where you started.
My getting involved was when I bought 23 new surplus engines for scrap price in 1969. The only thing I did not check before paying for them is that they were in England. Again long story short the freight to my shop was only $400 per engine. For years Oliver brand was strong around here and Perkins engines then were designed to burn a quart of oil every ten hours. So, yor can guess what happened. That is when I started rebuilding Perkins Engines.
Last thing if you turn injector upside down on 4 bend the line a little tighen it up start the engine and see what kind of pattern you get.
Please post back how you make out.
If this does not work, post back then it gets a little more complicagted.
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thank you for the info, I will do as you suggested and let you know what happens...
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Can timing really affect just one cylinder? My reasoning for my first post was someone told me that on these engines fuel delivery issues are usually caused by the cylinder before the one you're having trouble with in the firing order. Sounds confusing even to me...I've tried so many things its hard to keep it all straight...
 
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oliver90owner
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A lot of attention to the injection side, but I would be considering whether the 'brain' of the engine - the cam shaft - might be a possible suspect.

You say 'fresh rebuild', but what exactly did that mean? Maybe even a busted valve spring? But I would be checking the timing/lift on that cylinder (in particular) as part of the diagnosis. Cost nowt to do, even if simply to remove it from suspicion.
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think you are onto something...I just decided has to be the cam...we replaced all springs, retainers, seats & guides but never actually had the cam out. We looked at it from the bottom but never had it out or measured lift. I have tried everything from way to advanced to way too retarded, swapped injectors, swapped check valves, nothing takes knock away at high rpms, & its always on # 2...looks lake its back to pulling at least valve cover & trying to measure lift / duration...
 
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mkuhns
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I had our 1850 missing on two cylinders caused by one injector. The one injector was stuck open allowing compression back into the injection pump, so the next firing cylinder got a bunch of air instead of fuel. I would swap out #6 to say #5 so you know the injector before #2 was working good. DOES the engine miss under load or not? If the end of the line is damaged, replace it or blow through it with brake cleaner to make sure it has good flow. These engine are notorious for a high rpm flutter that goes away under load. It doesn't sound like what you're dealing with. Ours did that until we updated the bronze pump drive gear and injection pump drive like on the 2-105's. Another option is to run the engine with the injector out hanging off the injector line an watching the spray of the injector. Are all the camshaft lobes OK or is one worn off? Just a few ideas. Good luck and let us know what you find.
 
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mkuhns
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Just start it up and watch rocker arm movement. It should be more than noticeable if the cam is bad. Do you have any abnormal smoke or unusual noises.
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I don't have high rpm flutter, its a noticeable miss / knock on # 2...it misses / knocks whether loaded or not. I'm going to pull valve cover tomorrow if I have time and see if the valves are opening like the rest...thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the help and will keep posting.
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I get white smoke, but if I crack the line to #2 injector it goes away...seems as though # 2 isn't burning completely not sure why...
 
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mkuhns
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sounds like you have an intake lobe issue with the cam not allowing enough air into the cylinder. Raw fuel will eventually build up in the cylinder and burn when it can causing your knocking. Another thought, is something in the intake manifold port blocking the passage? I forget the head port design. White fuel smoke is lack of compression/air causing delayed or no ignition of fuel.
 
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hrRoss
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

did you check the compression? had the same thing on a 3208 cat. compression on 2 cyl was 300 lbs, needs more than that to fire. was 2 bent rods from leaky head gasket. it dont take much bend to lower compression. had the same thing on a vw tdi, in the same year
 
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LStangle
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: #4 Injector line on Perkins Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well I haven't had much time to work on it lately...my neighbor has a compression tester I can use so that's my next step...but after talking to some other people seems as though bad cam or rod is very unlikely...I think there has to be something wrong with the delivery side of the injector pump. There has to be something restricting or overfueling the #2 cylinder. I know everyone will say this isn't possible but there aren't many options left. I have a local rebuilder that I'm thinking of sending the pump to so he can run it on his test stand and hopefully figure it out. I'll post the results of my compression test and valve clearances...
 
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