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Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue

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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have 2 case dozers, likely within a few years of each other. The one is either a 1000D or C. (labeling worn off in the cab just enough to not be sure of a d or c) Anyways they both have the continental JD382 engine with the same Roosa Master pump. I can't seem to get either running again when they had been running before. One overheated and was rebuilt, the other a nut holding the pump on came rattled off and the pump shaft broke. Doesn't look like there is any damage to the cam shaft gears luckily. I bought another pump for that one.

The 1000D i rebuilt myself because of a water pump gasket leak and it over heated and the head warped. I decided to redo the rings and bearings while it was off. I got it back together and the timing gears lined up properly with the balancer. Pumps oil good it seems. So i'm confident that is all in line. But i can't get it to fire up at all, not even trying to get going without ether.

I have a manual for this engine and as far as i can tell lined everything up properly. The manual says to turn the flywheel until the pointer is on 36 for 2000 rpm engine (i beleive that it is what it should be because it has the lancaster balancer in the pan). But it also says put the flywheel at 27 degrees for "automatic advance". Not sure if that refers to the fuel pump or the engine? And how would one know if that was the case for the pump or engine?

Anyways i turned it to the 36 on the pointer on the flywheel and the lines on the pump do match up perfectly with the slot from the camshaft. One issue was the shaft for the pump has an offset knob on the end where it goes in the engine. With the dots in the pump and on the shaft lining up properly, and with the lines in the pump window lining up, the shaft wouldn't fit in to the engine because of the offset knob. So i flipped the shaft around and it fits in good now, but won't start it up.

Any one have experience with this particular engine and pump? It would be very much appreciated. Thanks
 
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thepumpguysc
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm alittle confused.. You said you "flipped the driveshaft around"..Do you mean you took the driveshaft OUT of the pump, turned it & reinstalled it?? OR just turned the driveshaft IN THE PUMP & it fit??
The drive shaft will ONLY fire 1 way.. it WILL FIT 2 ways tho..
INSIDE the pump is a dot.. on the end of the driveshaft theres a dot.. the dr.sh HAS TO GO in the pump, DOT TO DOT inorder for it to be timed correctly..
IF you post the DBG or DBO numbers off the pump name plate, I can tell you how to find #1 cylinder on the pump using your air compressor & blower nozzle.. & THAT will determine IF the pump was put together correctly..
Its possible the rebuilder put the weight cage on backwards & your timing lines WONT line-up in the window when you think they should.. on #1 cylinder..
BUT YOU GOTTA post the pump #'s to be SURE..
 
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Dieseltech
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm with the pump guy, sounds like you have the timing off, and/or the pump is not even working IF the engine won't run on ether also. Continental engines that drive the injection pump like some JD engines need to have the pump to cam drive in the correct spot, at least that can be changed from above if needed. If the pump tag shows AF or AP it's most likely a fixed phase no advance pump. AJ pumps have speed advance, need the tag info to find out for sure. With the valve cover off and the engine at TDC #1 on compression is when #4 rocker arms are on overlap, exhaust almost closed and intake starting to open. Then back up the engine to 40-50 degrees, then roll forward to the BTDC timing mark needed for the pump you have. Trace the #1 injection line to the correct pump port, align the pump timing lines and see if the rotor port is aligned or close in the outlet. Use a small air blast to clear any fuel to see the rotor port easier. If you see the rotor port, then the weight retainer is on correctly, if not it's 1/2 turn off, or marked wrong. If all is well install the pump drive shaft, dot to dot inside. Then reset the pump to cam drive shaft as needed to install the pump with the pump timing marks aligned.
 
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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I took the shaft out of the pump and noticed the dots inside the pump and on the shaft. I figured that was meant to line them up but i flipped it around and put it back in to make it fit. So that needs to be switched back and then rotate the engine to a different spot and see if i can get the lines lined up right.
 
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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Here are the numbers on the old pump:

DBGVC437-4?A?-8AJ 1800
576970 JD382F-261

Maybe its just 3 dashes with some scratches where the 4?A? is.

Here are the numbers for the new pump:

DBGVC437-7AJ

455085 JD38F-234

So maybe they both are automatic advance fuel pumps?
 
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Dieseltech
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

4AJ is replaced by 8AJ, your application calls for the 7AJ pump. All have speed advance. The # 1 cylinder pump outlet is about the 4:30 O clock position when looking down at the end cap and inlet port is 12 O clock. There may be a chance the pump ENGINE shaft is meshed with the cam on the wrong tooth, it can be removed by placing a small end wrench in the groove and turning the wrench to bring the shaft up for removal, then moved as needed to get the pump in place where it belongs. If you have a MF 85-88 IT book that shows how the timing is done on Continental four cylinder engines. The aluminum eccentric may need turned to remove drive shaft to camshaft backlash too.
 
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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

OK i will try that tomorrow if i can get my starter back from the shop. Thanks for the information!
 
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thepumpguysc
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

OK, first things first>> Put the dr.sh dot to dot..
#1 cyl. on THE PUMP is 4-5:00 LOOKING AT/FROM the back of the pump..
The FRONT OF the pump is the driveshaft.. The BACK of the pump is where the fuel goes in..
Grab an air nozzle & put constant air into that hole..
NOW slowly turn the drive shaft "clockwise" while looking at/from the front..
The driveshaft should STOP when it hits the air.. THATS #1 compression stoke on the pump..
NOW look to see if the lines are in the window..
IF they ARE, your good to go, as far as the pump installation goes.
IF the drive shaft ON THE PUMP will ONLY FIT in the engine 1 way..
Leave the shaft in the #1 position & check the fit on your tractor..
Your engine timing SHOULD BE 27* seeing its an automatic advanced inj. pump..
IF you have to move THE PUMP ALOT.. you know your doing something wrong with the ENGINE TIMING procedure..
DONT FORGET>> it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE in which way your rotating your engine AND the pump for timing purposes..
SO MAKE SURE you rotating it in the proper direction for normal operation..
I hope this helps.. TPG
 
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george md
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I have 3 1000's ,some C and some D , C has all the control levers
coming up from the dash . D has the trans levers in the tower between
your legs and the hyd levers by the arm rest (hyd tank). Ser# on C is
below the hyd levers and on D it is below the gauge cluster. Ser #
is also stamped in the frame rail ,left side just forward of final
drive.
engine definitely times at 27deg . One mark on crank gear is for
cam ,other is for balancer, balancer idler gear is just a space filler
and will usually take many turns of the balancer to get the marks
on it to line up with the crank and balance shaft.
Some D's had a tube from the top back of head to top of radiator to
carry bubbles to the radiator when you were working nose down on
steep hill.
In the 50 years that I have had 1000's ,only one had to be timed
with the dots opposite in order to have enough pump rotation to line
up the marks. Must have been an error in mfd because I had to rotate
the short shaft in the block also.

Good tractors , Holler if you want to chat .

george
 
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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

From online searches i was operating under the assumption that #1 cylinder on these continental engines is by the radiator? Or is it next to the cab?
 
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Dieseltech
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

#1 is by the radiator/water pump.
 
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thepumpguysc
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Is she runnin yet??
I HOPE you haven't bent the lines??
 
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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

well i believe i have it timed right now and everything. She really wants to get going but dies out after a few seconds. I think i know what that problem is. There is quite a bit of exhaust and some oil coming from the injector port #1 and a little exhaust from injector port #4. They are not sealing and it's losing enough compression to stop firing i'm thinking.

When i finally got around to tearing it apart it had been sitting through a winter with that warped head and there was water everywhere in that engine. Pan was full, some of the sleeves were full, everywhere. Frozen too, so i had to warm it up and squirt diesel everywhere and get as much junk out as i possibly could. But i remember that those 2 injectors were stuck in there pretty good and it took a lot of wedge hammering and prying to get them to even budge. So the face where it bolts up to the head is rough on those 2. Hopefully that is where it seals up the compression and nothing inside the port is messed up. They both still have a good spray though.

I'm thinking i'll need to get 2 different injectors. Or if anyone has a trick i could try with some kind of sealer or material to seal up those ports good i will try that first.

I'll look around on the internet for some replacement injectors, but if someone knows a good place to find them let me know. Thanks for all the help.
 
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Dieseltech
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The injectors have sealing washers inside against the nozzle holding nut, Tips are replaceable if the holders are good. They don't seal at the area under the hold down bolts.
 
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idahofarmer4311
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 1000d - Roosa Master fuel pump timing issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Looks like i have the injectors sealed but she is still not wanting to go. I read somewhere if the Roosa pumps don't have good excess fuel overflow they will not run just like they won't with not enough fuel.

So i posted a picture showing how the pump is tied back into the over flow lines. I undid the drain hose where it attaches to the bottom of #4 injector. You can see where it comes back in to the injector. There is a hose coming out of that same fitting going back underneath the cab. Now when i undid that hose from injector #4 and started turning the engine over, fuel was being pushed UP through that hose. No fuel was coming out of the excess fuel line at all.

Do i have my drain hose hooked up right? Should the pump be pushing fuel UP through that hose instead of allowing it to drain down?
 
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