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John Deere B Governor problems.


 
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Larry2809c
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I do not have any response from the governor on my Model B. I have disconnected the throttle rod and carb rod, holding the governor spring/bar as I opened the throttle, and the governor spring/bar does nothing. As the engine is running, I can move the governor spring/bar and it has no effect on the rpm's. I have put the tractor in gear and applied the clutch, just to see the engine being pulled down to stall, with no increase in the rpm's. Is there a way to pull the governor guts out without taking the complete governor housing off of the tractor? If I need to take the Gov Housing completely off, do I need to mark anything for the timing for when I replace the unit. Thanks for any help Larry
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi Larry:

You"ve got a lot of information here, and you might have tested it right, but I got a bit confused. I"ll describe what I would do, so if it follows what your did, I apologise in advance for the rehash. I just need to rearrange it in my head so it makes some sense to me. Let"s start at the last point.

>>>Is there a way to pull the governor guts out without taking the complete governor housing off of the tractor?>>>

It"s tough. I don"t think it will clear the fork that rides the weights sliding collar. I have always taken them off to do major work. That"s when you re-set the heel and lash on the fanshaft gears, grease the fan bearing, and inspect the internal governor bearings, as well as the thrust bearing that rides in the bore behind the mag/distributor. That bearing outer race can start to spin and that wollers out the bore. I have had to sleeve several of those bores.

>>>If I need to take the Gov Housing completely off, do I need to mark anything for the timing for when I replace the unit.

You know, the very best way is to take the plugs out, and roll the engine over to TDC on #1, then don"t move anything until you are done. So, mark the flywheel against the main case (typically at the 3 o"clock position you will find a mark), now mark the magneto postion with a good quality paint marker, then remove the mag and lay aside. Take the flywheel side cover off of the governor case, and don"t lose the shims under the cover, and don"t drop the bearing cage. Now mark where the governor gear meets the cam gear. When you reassemble things, as long as all of those marks are set back to where they were, you"ll be in time, with the exception that the mag/distributor might need to be set using a light. So that"s how you mark it for R&R.

>>>...do not have any response from the governor on my Model B...have disconnected the throttle rod and carb rod, holding the governor spring/bar as I opened the throttle, and the governor spring/bar does nothing. As the engine is running, I can move the governor spring/bar and it has no effect on the rpm"s.

Here"s is how I would test this. Start the engine, throttle to idle. Facing the carburetor, disconnect the rod from the governor to the carburetor at the carburetor butterfly shaft. Now the governor is sitting at the idle position because you left the throttle at idle. It will want to act to close the carburetor butterfly at any speed above idle. Now take your left hand and put it on the carburetor butterfly shaft, and hold the governor rod in your right hand. Pull on the governor rod slightly toward the carburetor just enough so that there is no play from inside the governor all the way to your right hand. Now increase the engine speed by moving the butterfly shaft a bit with your left hand. As the engine speed increases, the governor weights should fly outward, and exert pretty decent pressure agianst the yoke inside, which would rotate the governor shaft, and push the rod towards the carburetor. The farther you speed the engine from idle, the harder the governor rod should push. If it does push, you might only have some rod length adjustments to make. I"ll cover that at the end. If it does not do anything, basically at any engine speed meaning that the rod never pushes outward, then the internal yoke could be loose, fallen off, weights gone, or the sliding collar is stuck or otherwise hung up on the governor cross shaft insode the case. You might be able to spy this by looking carefully in through the left hand cover opeing with a small light.

If it does have some push, shut the engine down. Set the throttle to wide open, again engine off, and open the carburetor butterfly wide open. The rod should now be 1/2 a hole short from making the connection. When you pull the rod that 1/2 hole to engage it, you will provide the slight preload on the governor guts so as to ensure that there is no play in the linkages from the weights to the carburetor. Otherwise you could end up with a sluggish, wandering, or hunting governor.

I"ll be interested to read your findings.

Frank
 
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Larry2809c
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Frank:
Thanks for all of the information that you have provided. Will let you know the results after I try your suggestions. Thanks again Larry
 
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Larry 2809c
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Frank: I followed your suggestions on the governor, with no response from the governor arm when I moved the throttle on the carb. The arm has a throbbing rotating feel, and I am thinking I may have lost a weight. It looks like I will need to take the end cover off to get a better look. Thanks for your help Larry
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Larry -- Take a few moments out before tearing into your governor (Yes - it sounds like its bad), -- go to the John Deere Model H Restoration Site and download the 8-page summary on the JD-H governor. Yours will be similar in many ways and in particular in terms of those precious gears plus the governor's relationship with the magneto. These are things you MUST know.

Go to the site, look left, scroll down to GOVERNORS, and then allow the piece to come up. It will be JD-H specific, but be patient. Once you get past the L.H. Bearing Housings, you will lbe in tall cotton as they say. We all wish you the very best and stand here with you until it's right! (PatB)
Restoration Site, John Deere H
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, I would remove the left hand cover and take a look with a tight flash light beam. If you pull it out very far at all, you risk it disengaging with the mag drive, so you might have to remove the mag to be sure that when you tighten it back up you don't push on the tangs of the drive and break the mag/distributor. I'm not sure what you have. You can use a coat hanger wire and fish around to see if the sliding bushing is moving. That mechanism is pretty darn simple but not very well understood by many.

A lost weight should probably still allow you to feel action. It would just be less by half and it could occur at a different "position", that is it would be late because there is only half the centrifugal force trying to over come the tension of the throttle speed leaf spring. You could have a broken yoke, or it could have lost a fastener, letting it drop out of position. Maybe first try the test again, this time unhook the throttle to leaf spring rod so you can move the governor shaft over a wider range, pushing it rearward toward the dash while you speed the engine up. At that point it should push toward the carb to try to slow things down.

Did it ever work correctly?
 
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Larry2809c
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Frank: I purchased the tractor two years ago, and it had been setting in the bottom part of an old barn. The throttle plate on the carb was badly worn, and it would not idle or run the way I wanted it to, so I sent the carb to roberts for repair. I had to pay extra as it had a broken part and they needed to have the part welded. With the repaired carb, the tractor now idles very nice and runs great, with the exception of the rpm control. I have removed the carb/governor rod,as you have suggested, and opened the carb to detect any movement in the Gov arm. With the engine running about half throttle, I can move the Governor arm back and forth, without any resistance except for the spring. I can feel a thumping, what feels like to me is like one weight spinning, as it is a slower revolution the what I would expect it to be. Would I be able to see any better if I took off the crankcase cover and used a mirror to look up under the governor? I went ahead and painted the tractor while the carb was at roberts, and would like to fix my gov problem without taking it off of the tractor if I can. Thanks for your help. Larry
 
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larry2809c
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

PatB...Thanks for your help. I have printed off the 8 pages as per your suggestion and will spend some time on that this evening. Thanks again Larry
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think there is too much steel, or cast iron, in the way. The governor sits on a pretty solid, except for a few cut outs, plate of the main case.

The governor shaft turns at crankshaft speed, not cam shaft speed, so one thrown weight, if it pulese at all, should pulse at the engine speed. I'm thinking that you have a fouled sliding sleeve, or a fork/yoke that dropped a bolt and so is loose and ineffective.

What's the year/serial number and I'll post up a sketch of the governor guts, if that would be helpful in our discussion.

You should be able to see through the left side best. Shame about the paint, but that's the risk you run.

Frank
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Frank: Thanks again...The tractor is a 1947 Model B, Serial number 201454 Larry
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: John Deere B Governor problems. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Larry:

Here's a annotated schematic of a B 201,000 governor that I sketched out. I tried to put the action points on it. If you can't read it, send me an e-mail and I will forward it to you. You should be able to see where and when the forces occur. I still think, if it's true that you have no governor action, that you have lost the inside governor arm, or what I call the "yoke" that the sliding sleeve pushes to operate the arm. Maybe one weight has fallen down and is blocking the gizmo from gizmating. To confirm this, you could detach both rods from the governor arm and leaf spring, then try to rotate the arm in either direction. It should stick as the yoke hits the case in one direction or the thrust bearing in the other. You might need to e-mail me (frank@fboerger.com) from now on as this thread is so far back it's getting kind of hard to find. Or start another posting. you can refer to me in the subject so I notice it, if you like.

Frank



 
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