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Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS SHOWN)

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charles todd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS SHOWN) Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Tractor in question is a Farmall 504 Diesel. I am interested in putting a 3 spool valve bank on my Kokyer 220 loader. I believe open-center, power beyond, built-in-regulated valve bank will work.

This is what I've got in stock form...



This is what I think I need to do...



I apoligize for the crude diagrams, I do not have AutoCad installed on this computer. Can I go from the pump to the Inlet of the new valve and then out to the PS flow divider? It seems that this is all that is needed... or am I missing a return line? I can put 2000-2500 psi on the 3 spool and the stock 1600 psi will work for the remotes.

Whatcha think guys? Is it this simple, just add a power beyond valve in series between the pump and flow divider? When the loader is removed, just plug the lines in to themselves for OEM plumbing?

Thanks, I have been putting much thought into this...
Charles
 
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Jim Becker
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS SHO Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm not an expert on hydraulics by any means, but here are some observations that I think may be valid.

1) I think the power beyond valves should have another line to "dump" the return flow from the cylinders that needs to connect to the reservoir.

2) Connecting the additional valves between the pump and the power steering connections means that your power steering will go away whenever one of the added valves is actuated. Connecting your valves between the power steering taps and the existing remote will give priority to the steering.

3) Raising the relief beyond the factory setting of 1600# will add stress to the pump and gears that drive the pump. You may get away with it. On the other hand, you may blow pump seals and dump Hy-Tran into the engine, may damage the pump, may blow the gear train that drives the pump. You may want to price a pump and a gear set before you boost the pressure.
 
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charles todd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS SHO Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks Jim,

The "dump" line is where I have questions. I have not bought the valve yet (Prince RD5300), but I know it has 3/4" (AN-12) In/Out and 1/2" (AN-Cool work ports. These are the only ports I know of. The only difference I can tell between an open-center and power-beyond is a long threaded plug with some o-rings on it. All the valves I see state the power-beyond is a $15-$20 optional plug kit.

The power beyond plug supposedly blocks a port in the valve and "dumps" the return back into the pressure line (OUT from loader valve) to downstream demand. In an open-center system this means through the system back to the sump. This is just from the information I have read and formed conclusions from. I may be completly wrong.

I was also concerned about steering priority. Hence drawing the pictures. It makes sense to put the new valve in series with the AUX instead of IN on the flow divider.

Finally I have replaced the pump with NEW and the relief with REBUILT (#1600). I know the cost, I have spent about $700 to date. Basically the hydraulic system has been reworked from the pump to the rear couplings, including the VALVES. CNH and Hy-Capacity offers a 1600, 2100, 2300, and 2500 pilot relief. Would raising the PSI intermittently to 2000-2500 psi upstream of the factory relief cause undo stresses? I know I can break the front axle.

Thanks again, one can see how I am confused:
Charles
 
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charles todd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS SHO Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ok, more confusion sets in... I found the manual for the valve I am looking for and I am required to use three hoses. IN, OUT, and RETURN. The power beyond becomes the pressure supply for the downstream circuits. The return is shown "tee" into the system return. I am a little baffled where I might find somewhere to plumb in a AN-12 (3/4") return line on a Farmall 504...

Here is the link to the Prince schematic.

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/products/valves/RD5000InstS.pdf

I cannot seem to make the link active, might have to copy and paste.

Thanks in advance,
Charles
 
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Allan in NE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi Charles,

The flow divider (priority) valve always has to come right off the pump. Then, the "exhaust" of that priority valve becomes the supply oil for 'all and any' remaining system.

Otherwise, you would lose steering function with the demand of any other task.

Allan
 
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charles todd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That makes sense, steeirng first. What about the return from the new valve bank, where can I dump to tank at on a 504? Drill and tap the filter cover? The Power Beyond I understand where it goes.

Charles
 
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El Toro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:03 am    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That diagram looks pretty good. Hal
 
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TractormanNC
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hey Charles,

Been following your saga for some time as I have a 504 which I recently put P/S on. Agree with Allan about placing power beyond valve between P/S flow divider and aux valves. You will indeed need a return to sump for the power beyond. Only place I know of that is big enough to dump that much oil is the filler plug without tapping another hole in the xmsn case. I don't think the 1/2 inch pipe plug that is the fluid level check/power steering/oil cooler return will be big enough to flow what you need. You have the 17GPM pump if I recall correctly.
 
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TractormanNC
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS SHO Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Me again

The hyd system will stand 2000 psi without problems. IH used a 2000 PSI relief valve on some industrial models. Don't know if I would go above that.
 
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Allan in NE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Also,

Think ya have to replace that outer remote control with an "inner"?

Otherwise itís internal circuitry/passages will "dump" the power beyond oil back to sump?

Not that familiar with the 504, but that oil gets routed back to the dump somehow and I'd guess it is thru that outer remote control.

Allan
 
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Jim J
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You can use the power beyond valve for the 706 to 1566 tractors. I have some valves that I had CNC built that will work on your 504.
 
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charles todd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Both remotes are the "inner" with a bypass plate over the last valve (2 of them). I am not going to use a "power beyond" plate on the remotes, I would have to give one up... Not going to happen. Not eonugh room for both remotes, PB plate, and fittings. I had originally thought of using a bypass plate as a pattern and machining one from 4140 or A2.

As for the return, I have been thinking... The drain plug, bad idea... Obvious reasons here. But, the fill plug is like 1 1/2" or 2" pipe or ORB. I could plumb the return to the fill plug. I have a fresh 17 GPM pump, remote valves, oil, filters, and #1600 relief. Lotsa oil!

As for the bypass on the remotes, that is the nature of the an open center system. The pressure drop on the power beyond is less than 80-100 psi, per Prince specifications. They will not affect the system any other than with out the Power Beyond valve. When a spool is shifted on the Prince valve bank it closes the circuit to the Power Beyond directing ALL flow to the spool or spools in use until shifted to neutral.

Revised Power Beyond Diagram:



Thanks to all once again. We are about to figure this out!

Charles
 
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Allan in NE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Charles,

What the heck is it that you are trying to accomplish?

If you're just trying to free up the remotes, why not just get a PTO driven pump and be done with it? Those things are way, way faster and move more oil than that tractor's system ever will anyway.

Allan
 
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charles todd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I am trying to plumb dedicated hydraulics to the loader. They will be removable with the loader like on modern tractors. With the 17 GPM, fresh oil, filters it MOVES! I am just limited on capacity by the stock #1600 relief and I have no additional remotes for rear implements. When I bale hay I have to disconnect one of the loader circuits or remove the loader. If I had a PTO pump and dedicated loader reservoir, I could not use a PTO implement with the loader installed. With the remotes controling the loader, I cannot use a rear remote for implement cylinders.

So... I am going the "dedicated loader directional control valve route". As much money as I have spent on rebuilding the ENTIRE system hydraulics, I am going to make it earn its keep. At this point a $300 valve, plus fittings and hose is not an issue. Next up when I decide to drop some more cash I will be contacting Rusty for a Schwartz.

I know this is a small tractor in the realms of a row crop tractor. But 50 hp with a loader, IPTO, and live hydraulics is all I will really ever need. Why not set it up right and it may last another 46 years. The biggest tractor we had on a 150 acre cattle farm growing up was a JD 3020. I just want a 6 cylinder for the next project! Maybe a Hydro, but definatly RED.

When I am done I can use the loader, the PTO, and the remotes without removing ANYTHING or at the SAME TIME (almost). Once all this is done, it is final oil leak repairs and paint time!

Once again I appriciate the patience you guys have... I tend to look too deep into things sometimes. But in this case I could trash a new pump if I plumb this incorrectly.

Charles
 
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Allan in NE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Circuit, Normal and Power Beyond (DIAGRAMS ... Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well, Good luck to ya Pard.

However, I'm tellin' ya, for $35 ya can buy a PTO extension at any tractor outlet. That and a PTO pump will get you where you wanna be.

And, ya can have 'er up and running in less than 10 minutes.

Certainly your business, but I just think you're going the long way around the barn. :>)

Allan


 
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