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ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics


 
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mike bruns
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:49 am    Post subject: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a 1964 4000 industrial backhoe/loader with weak hydraulics. I changed all the fluid and filters. Under load it will not bog the engine and I cannot hear a relief valve squealing. It looks like the loader control contains the relief valve and it's a worn out leaky mess. Are parts available to rebuild it? I've found the engine driven pump and loader control are very expensive to replace. Are there any books covering the hyd system of the industrial tractors?
Thanks for any help. Mike
 
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john_Bud
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There are 2 main relief's. One is in the loader control valve and the other is in the hoe control.

"weak" can be from the relief being set too low, the pump bypassing, the control leaking or the cylinders leaking internally. The control valves are not rebuildable in common sense. The relief valve is replaceable (if you can find one), but to "rebuild" the valve you need to send it out and have it bored out, then plated up and machined to fit the spool. Much cheaper to just buy a replacement from a place like "surplus center".


The factory ford manuals can be found on places like e bay and others as well as from FNH. You should get a set before diving in too deep.

jb
 
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mike bruns
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

My loader says I9-332 and the hoe has no data except it says Ford and looks like the 700 series that I see on other 4000 industrials.My factory tractor manual doesn't cover any external hydraulics. Do I need seperate loader/hoe manuals? Thanks Mike
 
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JK-Mi
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The original manuals were separate. Don't know what you may find in the open market.
 
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john_Bud
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

mike bruns wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:59:15 08/20/09) My loader says I9-332 and the hoe has no data except it says Ford and looks like the 700 series that I see on other 4000 industrials.My factory tractor manual doesn't cover any external hydraulics. Do I need seperate loader/hoe manuals? Thanks Mike


Is it a straight boom ? that would probably be a 723 series.

Is the tractor a light duty industrial or a heavy duty? The HD has a cast iron nose and a large heavy front axle and a single PS cylinder under and behind the axle. The LD has the same nose as an ag 4000 and non adjustable front axle that looks like the ag axle, the PS is the standard dual cylinders on the side as the ags..
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The hydraulic pump isn't expensive. In fact, it's one of the most common and cheapest around, as far as backhoes and loaders go. Just a 23 GPM Cessna gear pump, same as used on many Deere, IH, and Case backhoes and loaders. Same splined shaft and same SAE mount.

As to your problem? I assume your 4000 has a diverter valve and you cannot use the front loader and rear backhoe at the same time, correct? My industrial 4000 with the 723/724 hoe and loader has it. So, you've got two separate hydraulic systems with their own relief valves. If the front loader still works well, and the rear hoe does not, then you can assume you've got a blown relief valve or associated o-ring. But, if neither work? Then you've probably got a worn-out pump. You can buy a brand new pump for $225-$300 is you shop around.
 
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mike bruns
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It's a industrial machine with heavy front axle and subframe. The boom on the hoe is straight. Seems like a purpose built backhoe,no pto or rear hydraulics.
Jon it sounds like you are the authority on these machines. Do you mind a phone call. I'll glady pay you for your time. Ag machines are common here but nobody knows anything about industrial tractors.
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Does your hoe look like this? This is the 723 backhoe on my 1963 4000 HD industrial loader. Ford called all the industrial 4000s heavy-duty, even though some had heavier options than others.
It can get confusing when trying to order parts. I finally got all the Ford parts microfiche for the tractor,hoe, and loader so I can look up parts myself.
I've run the machine since new, and eventually bought it from the original owner when he retired.
My 723 originally had odd-ball British hdyraulic fittings on the hoe. It was close to impossible to make new hoses without a lot of screwing around. I finally bought adapters so it takes standard hoses.
My machine is called the HD Industrial 4000 by Ford, but it has the lighter front, tin nose, and dual-cylinder steering. Many parts for the steering though, are not the same as an ag 4000.
Mine has the four-speed trans, over and under aux. Sherman trans, and not rear lift and not PTO.

Photobucket
 
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mike bruns
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

same hoe. Your seat is a little nicer. I have a rough hoe attached to a really worn out tractor.The engine/trans/clutch seem ok but everything else is thrashed.
I'm thinking about dead heading the pump and checking the pressure.The loader controls are really worn/leaky so if the pumps good i'll mess with that next.
I have a 4 spd with the bigger diesel.It starts real well with no glo plugs and smokes a little but it will die before it spins the tires in 1st while digging.Is this a weak engine also?
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you deadhead the pump, and it's good, it will blow to pieces.

As to power in standard 1st gear, guess I can't answer that since my 4000 has the Sherman three-speed aux. trans ahead of the four-speed. I've had it in low range since I've owned it and it feels just right to me. I'm working around steep hills all the time, so don't want a faster 1st.

I've got a gas Ford ag tractor (641) with the same four-speed as my 4000 Industrial, and I always figured 1st was too fast to be useful.

I've got the 172 gas, and I assume you've got the 172 diesel? If so the diesel is going a have a little less power than a gas engine anyway. All diesels make less power than equal-sized gas engines, unless the diesel has a turbo.
 
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john_Bud
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote


JDemaris is correct. NEVER dead head a hydraulic system around a relief. The pump will be the problem (even if it wasn't before!)

I have a good running diesel 4000HD industrial with new rubber. It will dig a pair of trenches quick when hitting a pile. So, no. Your tractor dying does not sound correct. Could you have a sherman trans in high range? (on a 4speed - lever on the left side of transmission by your clutch foot). Or are you really in 3rd?

The HD Industrials look like this - click for larger size.



When all repaired and running as Ford intended, they are very good machines. A diff lock would be a nice addition, but... still good and very strong. Getting one that is "thrashed" into that state is time consuming and can be spendy.

I'm on the road currently and only able to check in sporatically. Have you tried to contact Tony Jacobs? His phone # has been published, but I don't like to spam it out. If your email is open, I'll send it to you. He is THE expert on the HD's. Larry Loy is also extremely knowledgeable.

jb
 
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mike bruns
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

pic of my hd4000. Bought unseen for 2000. Ran and digs but still a bad investment i"m afraid.
The hoe is solid so i"m thinking get some hyd pressure and dig my pond and get some value out of it.
I was going to route the pump back to the tank with a gauge and valve installed for a pressure reading.

 
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Phil Latta
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: ford 4000 backhoe weak hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote


John, I stumbled across this forum while researching my new used tractor. I saw the picture of your tractor and it looks alot like mine except colors. I have a Ford tractor and all the guy could tell me was it was a Ford Industrial. No pto, front loader bucket and the only id plate is on the boom and it says I9-332 and serial I988. Can you help me identify my tractor, year make model etc? Thanks

Phil
 
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