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timing for a roosa master injection pump engine

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FrankPetro
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I wondered if anyone could help me. I have an international TD-9 loader. By a foolish mistake, straight K-1 kerosene was used for fuel. After a few days running the machine just died out, I ended up pulling the injection pump off to find that the pump (roosa master DBGFC631-4AL) froze up and the shaft broke right off. I bought a replacement pump which I installed back on the engine, I did everything I was told to do, by a farmer friend of mine. I bled out the lines and it pumps fuel good. After the help of some starting fluid, I got the machine to start, but the machine will not throttle up. It is just all white blue smoke and the machine does not have any power to move it when it does start. I am assuming that the timing between the pump and the engine is incorrect. I dont have any kind of information to know how to time the pump to the engine. I know on the timing plate cover on the injection pump, I removed the plate and when I put the engine damper pulley on the top dead center there is no timing mark lined up in the pump. Does anyone know how I would go about timing the injector pump to the engine. Reading on this forum I see alot of people that say that their machine wont start when it is hot, and I always had the same problem, but when it did start, it ran great. If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it.
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You make sure the engine is at TDC of the compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke. I assume IH calls for timing for #1 cylinder, but you'd better check. I don't have a TD9 book and IH does not always use #1 cylinder for timing on all engines. Then have the two timing lines in the pump - lined up. Then install.

I assume your pump came with the shaft already in the pump? If not, you can also check the driveshaft timing marks. The end of the driveshat drive-tand has a dimple mark and so does the drive slot inside the pump. Must be installed dimple to dimple or you'll be 180 degrees off.
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: What engine do you have ?? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I just got thinking . . . what the heck engine do you have in your TD-9? I thought they were all four cylinder engines, not six. That pump number you gave is for a six cylinder engine.

DBGFC631-4AL means - B series pumps with Die-cast housing, flyweight Governor, Flange mount, Clockwise rotation, 6 cylinders and .31" diameter pumps.

As far as hot start problems go, often when the pump gets some wear, it cannot pump enough fuel to start the engine at cranking speeds when hot. But once the engine is spinning fast enough, the engine can run fine.
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I just learned something new. I had two TD9s over the years, and both were four-cylinder. I just looked it up in IH book and hadn't realized that IH stuck 656 farm tractor engines into the last TD9s.

Engine does indeed get timed by #1 cylinder either at TDC or 3 degrees BTC depending on serial #. At that time, pump timing lines should be lined up.
 
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FrankPetro
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: What engine do you have ?? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes it is a 6 cylinder 282
 
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FrankPetro
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

On the engine damper pulley, there are several zeros and maybe 5 inches or so of timing lines, or marks that is where I am having trouble. I took the valve cover off, to make sure that when I brought the timing mark up to tdc to make sure the valves were both closed on compression stroke. In doing so, when I put it on the first zero, which I was assuming was tdc,, the one valve has the required play and the other valve is still tight. I dont understand that. When I turn it to where the both valves are both completely closed, the marks on the damper pulley aren't on the pointer. I was told that some internationals time from the back of the engine. At this point I cant seem to find what marks to bring up. On the crankshaft the timing marks are about 6 inches long with alot of zeros. That is where I am confused. I dont know where the engine is at tdc? On the damper pulley the lines start off at zeros, go about 10 degrees and then it has another zero, then all the way at the end of the timing marks on the damper pulley it has an "A" which I am assuming is after tdc. that is where my trouble is, I dont know where the correct timing mark is to tdc the engine.
 
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ZANE
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

While you have the valve cover off remove the injector on the #1 cylinder and gently turn the engine with a piece of soft copper on top of the piston to see when it is exactly on TDC.

Set the pump timing marks in the window and with the timing plate off the front of the engine set the pump into the slots of the drive gear and install the three bolts. Double check the timing marks in the pump timing window.

Actually you should be able to do this timing with the pump already installed with the three bolts out and turn the pump adapter plate from the front till the marks are aligned in the pump timing window. Then install the three bolts into the pump drive gear.

Never Never turn that engine with the starter while the pump is off the engine. You can bust gears and housings etc. becauce the drive gear can hang up without the pump installed to hold it aligned.

Zane
 
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ZANE
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Get the valves on #1 where both are closed fully before removing the injector to find TDC.

Maybe then some of the front pulley marks will be aligned.

It is a good idea to be certain that #1 is indeed the one to time it with. I worked in an IH dealership in the late 60s and I remember that the V8 304 and 345 both times off the #8 cylinder. Why some nut came up with that is anybody's guess???? I think IH had a few nuts engineering their stuff back then and before.

Did I ever tell you I hate working on an IH tractor????!!!!!!

Zane
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I would never just go by what the valves look like at TDC. Just rotate until you see the intake valve open and then close, and then keep going until you hit TDC. Then you know for sure you are on the compression stroke.

As far as the engine damper pulley goes, there ought to be one mark that says TDC.
 
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FrankPetro
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ok, I checked again. On the damper pulley there is about 5 inches worth of timing marks. On the one end of the marks where they start there is an "A" and on the other end after the five inches of timing marks, there is an "R" that is all there is.
We took the valve cover off, we turned the engine with a socket by hand until the exhaust valve went all the way down and all the way up, and the same on the intake. We pulled the injector out of the head, put a straw in the hole to make sure the piston was up. When we did this the two rocker arms had play in them. The damper pulley was on about 8 degrees from the "A" side, but the timing marks in the injection pump were not lined up. At this point I am open to any suggestions.
 
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ZANE
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Take the plate off the front of the engine timing cover and remove the three bolts that hold the injection pump drive adapter and turn the pump till the timing marks come together and that should be right. Replace the three bolts and tighten them up and button up the inspection plate.

Zane
 
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JDemaris
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Keep on turning the engine. When the marks on the crank pulley are at anywhere from 3 degrees on the A side , to 0 (directly inbetween A and R), the pump timing marks should be in line.
 
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FrankPetro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I tried it today. I got the engine timing about 3 degrees from the center of the lines toward the A side. The injection pump lines werent lined up. We pulled the injection pump off and turned it completely one turn and then the lines lined up, but when we got it started by using starting fluid, but it still keeps blowing out white smoke and no power. I let it run for a half hour, I kept bleeding the lines with no improvement. Do I need to work more on the timing would you think? At this point I am lost. I dont know what else could be possibly wrong. Any suggestions?
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: timing for a roosa master injection pump engine Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You've got me confused now. You turned it a full turn and it made a difference? With the pump itself, that should make NO difference. One full turn just puts it back where you starter. do you mean one half turn? Or is there some sort of reduction drive box hooked to this pump? I do know that some IHs have specail drive-boxes hooked to Roosamaster pumps.

The pump itself turns at half engine speed. So, one full turn of the pump equals two full turns of the engine (the complete up-down, up-down four strokes of the four cycle engine).
 
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