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9N oil pressure


 
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stonehollow
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

- at the risk of starting another oil pressure controversy(sorry, I did read the last year"s worth):

I have a 9N (rebuilt engine) that has exhibited low oil pressure after it warms up since the rebuild. Cold pressure is around 30 psig, and drops to 1-5 psig within 5 minutes of use. I"m using 10W30 oil, doesn"t matter if it"s hot or cold out (Minnesota) - same behavior, although it takes longer when it"s below freezing.

Is this a problem? Before the rebuild, it didn"t behave this way. Is it possible that an air bubble in the line to the gauge contributes (I don"t see how it could). Any suggestions? I"m not too wild about going to a heavier grade oil. I could go to a straight grade if that"s what it takes, but I can reliably start it down to about 5F now. I won"t even try below that.
 
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Dell (WA)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Stoney........that is EXACTLY what 10wt oil will do. It thins out with temperature and vola low oil pressure. Its called viscosity.

GITT that d**mn weaksister 10wt oil OUTTA THERE before you haffta rebuild yer brand new engine with burned bearing journals.

I know you think 10-30 is 30wt oil, it is NOT 30wt oil!!! It is 10wt with heat sensitive additives that make it act like 30wt when HOT.

Unfortunately, when yer engine gitts HOT, the internal clearances OPEN and suddenly yer loosing oil pressure. Yer complaint. Iff'n you really wanna use multi-weight oil; use 20-40wt or 20-50wt.

10-30wt oil is fer modern engines to reduce engine friction and makes the EPA happy with BRAGGIN' mpg numbers for the slimy salesmen. .......OILY Dell
 
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stonehollow
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm skeptical, but willing to try it. It's been about 10 years since the rebuild.
 
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Jimmyjack
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If so, then why doesnt ALL overhauled engines using 10w oil exhibit 1 to 5 pound pressures? It may be the result of tolerance problems, but not the cause. Somewhere in the overhaul something was not quite on the nuts. By the way I use 15w30 here in cold weather climate.
 
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Dell (WA)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Jimmy.......you do know that the 1939 N-Engine was designed for 30wt oil, don't you??? Ford even recommended 40wt oil in the HOT summertime. They also recommended adding a qt of kerosene for winter time to thin the oil. Modern multi-weight oil is better, but I still stand my assursion that 10-30wt oil is NOT the oil to use in yer N-Engine.

Since yer BelchFire-V8 only has idiot lites, new tractor owners are amazed at reading oil pressure. Sumptin' they don't teach in kindergarten school or even high school physics classes. .......Dell who knows how and why to choose oil by reading specifications and application requirements
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:31 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Dell (WA) wrote:
(quoted from post at 22:59:49 11/10/10) Stoney........that is EXACTLY what 10wt oil will do. It thins out with temperature and vola low oil pressure. Its called viscosity.

GITT that d**mn weaksister 10wt oil OUTTA THERE before you haffta rebuild yer brand new engine with burned bearing journals.

I know you think 10-30 is 30wt oil, it is NOT 30wt oil!!! It is 10wt with heat sensitive additives that make it act like 30wt when HOT.

Unfortunately, when yer engine gitts HOT, the internal clearances OPEN and suddenly yer loosing oil pressure. Yer complaint. Iff'n you really wanna use multi-weight oil; use 20-40wt or 20-50wt.

10-30wt oil is fer modern engines to reduce engine friction and makes the EPA happy with BRAGGIN' mpg numbers for the slimy salesmen. .......OILY Dell


Pure unadulterated Horse Puckey. What in the world do you think SAE 30 means? I'll make this real simple for you. The SAE defines what grade 30 means. SAE 30 oil is an oil with a measured kinemetic viscosity in the range 9.3 cSt to 12.5 cSt when HOT. And the SAE defines hot to be 100C (212F). ANY and EVERY oil, mono-grade or multi-grade, that has the SAE 30 grade label has been tested and measured to have a viscosity within that range at that temperature. In addition every grade 30 oil must also have a measured high shear viscosity of no less than 2.9 mPA at a skin blistering 150C. That viscosity is what maintains the oil film that protects the bearings in your motor. The idea that using SAE 10W30 will cause premature bearing failure in an N motor is laughable.

Multi-grade oils were invented long before the EPA ever came into play - they were invented to IMPROVE the COLD behavior of oil. Even back in 1939 the engineers knew that motor oil got too thick when cold and caused starting and lubrication problems. Their solution was to switch to a lighter oil or thin a heavier oil. Guess what - that did indeed make the oil too thin when hot. Modern chemistry can now make oils that are thinner when cold and still retain their viscosity when hot - they are called multi-grades and they get two grade labels. The first grade label tells you what the viscosity is when VERY cold (-30C) and the second grade label tells you what the viscosity is when very hot (100C). They are two entirely different grades with different test requirements and methods.

Now for the guy with the oil pressure problem it ain't the oil. The clearances in your motor are excessive and sounds like they have been that way from day onwe of the rebuild. That could be from any number of causes - cam shaft wear leaps to mind as that is something that is often overlooked during a rebuild, In any event you can try a heavier oil and perhaps get a small bump in hot oil pressure. Any 10Wxx multi-grade will get you decent performance at 5F. Don't be afraid of 5Wxx or 0Wxx grades either although they will almost surely be fully synthetic and pricey. The little graph below gives you a nice visual of how quickly the various grades thicken when the temps drop and why I'm not a fan of SAE 20W50 in any form.

TOH


 


Last edited by TheOldHokie on Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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kev8n
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Amen. At least someone "gets it".

kevin
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

did you service or replace the oil pump at rebuild?

soundguy
 
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stonehollow
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I bought it in 1992, ran it for several years with no oil pressure problems. Somewhere I have the paperwork on the rebuild, but since it was good before, and they were quite thorough, I'd have to assume it was at least tested.
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

hmm.. i would not assume anything. went from good to bad AFTER the rebuild?

soundguy
 
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stonehollow
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

My assumption also.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm.. i would not assume anything. went from good to bad AFTER the rebuild?
 
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lha
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I use 15w40 year round with good results.Granted I live in Tn,not Minn,but if you start up in a barn,and let it warm up until the thermostat opens,then go out it's the same as ambient temp being warmer,as thermo maintains temp of motor.---lha
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: 9N oil pressure Reply to specific post Reply with quote

lha wrote:
(quoted from post at 13:22:46 11/11/10) I use 15w40 year round with good results.Granted I live in Tn,not Minn,but if you start up in a barn,and let it warm up until the thermostat opens,then go out it's the same as ambient temp being warmer,as thermo maintains temp of motor.---lha


It is most definitly not the same. The "ideal" viscosity for oil in a running motor is something in the neighborhood of 10-15 cSt. That gives you a good oil pressure, a protective oil film, and circulates freely to reach all of the moving parts. Nothing thicker is required or needed. Unfortunately ALL motor oil gets much thicker than that when it sits in the cold for any length of time. On startup at 5F the viscosity of some typical grades look like this in the crankcase:

SAE 10W30 - 1,900 cSt
SAE 15W40 - 6,000 cSt
SAE 30 - 7,600 cSt
SAE 20W50 - 13,700 cSt

SAE 10W30 is the thinnest of those and its 200 times thicker than what your motor needs to run safely. Your 10W40 is 500X what is needed and the 20W50 is awhopping 1,300X what is needed. After the motor warms up ALL of those oils have thinned down to somewhere between 12 and 18 cSt - very close to that "ideal" viscosity your motor wants to see.

Do you see the problem? They are ALL perfectly fine once the motor (e.g. oil) warms up - it's that period right after initial startup where those still cold oils are WAY to thick to work optimally. That thick oil makes the motor hard to start and impedes the initial flow of oil to the bearings and other moving parts causing accelerated wear as you "warm up" the motor. The thicker the cold oil is the harder the tractor is to start and the more wear you get.

When ambient temps are above freezing not so much of an issue as all of these grades perform acceptably at that temperature. In cold 5F Minn winters it is a very real issue. The heavier oils are hurting the motor not helping it. In fact,even in 80F summer weather anything heavier than grade 30 in an N is buying you virtually nothing in terms of additional wear protection and costing you increased friction and a slight loss of HP. It's the rare N that sees operating conditions that require the additional protection of a 40 grade oil.

TOH
 


Last edited by TheOldHokie on Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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