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painting question

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Mark Basinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I want to prep and paint my Ford 600 myself. I have read many posts here but am still a bit unclear. I want to apply the best paint possible with minimal health risks. I do not have supplied air system. What should I use?
 
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sflem849
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The best paint is Urathane with hardner. You absolutely need supplied air for that.
Basically if it doesn't have hardner you don't need supplied air from what I have read. CNKS will come along and bring you more targeted advice if you need it.
 
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CNKS
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Acrylic enamel by PPG, DuPont, Martin Senour (NAPA), etc--does not require hardener. If you make some mistakes and have to reapply you will have to wait several days. Acrylic enamel is higher quality than the so called premium paint sold at farm stores. Your CNH dealer may have an "Acrylic modified" alkyd enamel which is ok also, but don't get the straight alkyd enamel, it will fade. And the can probably will not say what it is and your dealer probably won't know what you are talking about, best to stick with a major brand of acrylic enamel.
 
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Mark Basinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

So here are the steps I have read about in this forum:
1. Remove paint with oven cleaner and cup brush on angle grinder for cast parts.
2. Sand Blast sheet metal.
3. Clean with wax and grease remover
4. Wash with phosphoric acid
5. Picklex 20 if it can"t be primed right away.Sheet metal only?
6. Surfacer to fill in small pits.
7. Epoxy Primer (how many coats?)
8. sand primer
9. Paint with PPG Omni MP 170

Am I close?
 
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sflem849
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You flip flopped your epoxy primer and high build/surfacer. I am not going to do all of those steps, but some do.

You will have to put body filler in there somewhere. I have seen a few different opinions, but I would follow the label for the body filler.
 


Last edited by sflem849 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CNKS
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

2. Sand blasting sheet metal will warp it, even with my small sandblaster. I have done it. I use a fiber wheel on an electric drill, Makes deep scratches that the surfacer will fill.
3. Wax and grease remover is the last step before painting.
4. I don't do acid washes, I use Picklex 20 if I think it is necessary, it just needs to have the residue mostly scuffed off, wax and grease remover will get the rest of the residue. Do not wash it off. It will neutralize any rust in the bottom of pits if you have any after the fiber wheel. I do not use any phosphoric acid product on cast, that includes Picklex 20 because it gets in the pores and might lift the paint. It didn't the one time I used it, but I haven't used it since.
7. 2 coats of epoxy primer, do NOT sand it. You sand the surfacer. Go to PPG's website look up refinishing and print off whatever you are using. Follow the instructions for each step you do, you will not go wrong.
8. Surfacer is sanded with 400 grit, will likely require more than one application and sanding to get a flat surface, use only on the sheet metal. By application I mean 3 coats 10-15 minutes apart, let dry and sand.
If you have supplied air use PPG Omni MP 182 for the surfacer, Omni MTK single stage acrylic urethane for the topcoat, 3 coats. I use base clear for the topcoats, which work best for me. Both 182 and MTK require hardener and supplied air for your lungs. If you do not have supplied air, use MP 181 surfacer and MAE acrylic enamel. You will be happier with urethane, though.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Mark, I have two tractors that had their sheet metal prepped and painted by pro body guys with their own shops. Both took the pieces down to bare metal with DAs, then primed and painted. Both tractors looked good for about four years, then the paint on both started to bubble at places where there had been little pits in the metal, where the paint had worn a way first, like right in front of the five speed shifter on my 960. Soon after I was sandblasting and painting the body on my dump truck myself. The counter guy at the paint jobber told me that I needed acid wash. Looking into it I found out that little bits of rust will be left down in the rust pits in flat steel or cast iron, and even with epoxy or etching primer, they will slowly enlarge until they bubble up. Phosphoric acid converts rust to iron phosphate which is a strong, inert black film. The product instructions tell you to keep the surface wet with the product for ten minutes, then wash it off, I do this by tossing small parts in a bucket of water and spraying larger parts with a hose stream. A little brushing is good too. After it dries if there is any of that "white residue" another acid application will dissolve it, followed by a little better rinse. The rinse is followed by wiping with the final prep product. If you plan to sell within three years, or you can check pits and depressions in cast iron microscopically for remaining rust and there is none, then you can skip the acid wash. I will never skip it again though, on anything with rust on it.
 
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CNKS
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Showcrop, my point is that Picklex 20 will do everything that you say. You can brush it on and forget about it until you are ready to paint, then scuff it with a scothbrite pad and remove most of the rest of the white residue with wax and grease remover. The instructions say it can be painted over, but I don't paint over residue, which is one reason I don't use true rust converters. Picklex is expensive but it goes a LONG way. I was told about it 10 years ago by a long term painter, who told me to forget metal prep, which is about the same as what you are using. I used Picklex over a sanded and mostly clean hood also 10 years ago. There was some residual rust I could not sand out, before I started using the fiber wheel. The rust was neutralized. I have never seen rust bubble on anything because there is no rust when I paint. Pro body guys (I will exclude B Maniac and Glennster, because they know what they are talking about) are for the most part "shortcut guys" who want to get done and make money off someone else. I can prepare surfaces better than they do because I take the time to do it right. Don't take me wrong, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, it just takes more time, and you have to be sure the surface is absolutely dry, with Picklex you don't have to do that. It appears that I am going to tell people what I do, you are going to say what you do, so on this forum that "conflict" is always going to be here -- so be it. Done properly they both work.
 
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Mark Basinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch for the clarifications. I now feel more prepared. I understand there is some variation in the approach based on personal experience. I plan to keep the tractor and pass it to my son someday so I want a nice job that will last. I totally rebuilt the engine 10 years ago with help from this website and it turned out great. I remember how difficult it used to be to get quality information before the internet. This is great.

One more question: Would it be smart to invest in an HPLV gun?
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CNKS wrote:
(quoted from post at 06:38:53 07/04/12) Showcrop, my point is that Picklex 20 will do everything that you say. You can brush it on and forget about it until you are ready to paint, then scuff it with a scothbrite pad and remove most of the rest of the white residue with wax and grease remover. The instructions say it can be painted over, but I don't paint over residue, which is one reason I don't use true rust converters. Picklex is expensive but it goes a LONG way. I was told about it 10 years ago by a long term painter, who told me to forget metal prep, which is about the same as what you are using. I used Picklex over a sanded and mostly clean hood also 10 years ago. There was some residual rust I could not sand out, before I started using the fiber wheel. The rust was neutralized. I have never seen rust bubble on anything because there is no rust when I paint. Pro body guys (I will exclude B Maniac and Glennster, because they know what they are talking about) are for the most part "shortcut guys" who want to get done and make money off someone else. I can prepare surfaces better than they do because I take the time to do it right. Don't take me wrong, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, it just takes more time, and you have to be sure the surface is absolutely dry, with Picklex you don't have to do that. It appears that I am going to tell people what I do, you are going to say what you do, so on this forum that "conflict" is always going to be here -- so be it. Done properly they both work.


CNKS, You have I believe mentioned a few times that you are in Arizona. Here in NH it seems nothing ever gets really dry without a little help. So rust, and thus pits, thrive. A few years ago I took a'67 car down from a storage rack after not looking at it for maybe three years and found a damp place under a floor mat despite the dry air of three winters. Perhaps the climate difference has to do with our different observations. I am never pressed for time with my hobby work so I can take the time to let the iron phosphate dry completely.
 
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CNKS
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm in southwest Kansas, not as dry as as Arizona. Maybe 5 inches of rain so far this year, 18 average/year, daytime humidity 10-20% can be 100% early in the morning but it doesn't last. You have high humidity in NH, plus salt air, you do have to take more precautions. Although I mention it, I seldom see the need for phosphoric acid, Picklex included. As to Picklex, I only use it in out of the way places I simply cannot get to. I am not going to wash off anything close to the time I paint. It is not the Fe phosphate it is the flash rust that happens immediately when water is used in NH, KS, AZ and anyplace else. Picklex does not need to be washed off, thus no flash rust to contend with. It will prevent rust from forming for months as long as it is inside. In your case, with the salt air even Picklex needs to be watched. We really don't disagree, it is just how each of us gets there.
 
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CNKS
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, if you are not used to painting, HVLP is definitely the way to go. If you are used to suction guns, it takes a while to get used to HVLP.
 
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RandyB(MI)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

( thanks for the compliment,CNKS).
 
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Bodyman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CNKS, Not stiring the proverbial pot here but just adding my input. I have been sandblasting or having pro blasters do the job on some large scale projects for MANY years and I must be just plain lucky, if I take your sage advice to heart. RE: "Sand blasting sheet metal will warp it" I agree, sandblasting is not the operation to be taken on by the novice without some education and guidence. Hope I haven"t upset anyone, just adding my point of view.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: painting question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bodyman wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:10:42 07/07/12) CNKS, Not stiring the proverbial pot here but just adding my input. I have been sandblasting or having pro blasters do the job on some large scale projects for MANY years and I must be just plain lucky, if I take your sage advice to heart. RE: "Sand blasting sheet metal will warp it" I agree, sandblasting is not the operation to be taken on by the novice without some education and guidence. Hope I haven"t upset anyone, just adding my point of view.


I have sand blasted some tractor panels with no warping, It was a small unit with not very high pressure.
 
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