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anyone have any idea where to start?

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Smokeys427
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a '49 8N that's been converted to a 12 volt system. Ran great all season this year. But now when I'm out brush hogging (I live on about 5 acers) and under power it starts to backfire.
It does it one time and that's about it for a while and then all of a sudden it does it again. When it does it seems to lose a bit of power but then it starts to run fine again.
When it's cold it doesn't seem to do it at all. It does it after about 1/2 hour of brush hogging and usually again it's when I'm in fairly thicker grass and weeds.
It was tuned up at the beginning of the season (spring time) with new points, plugs, wires cap and rotor. I didn't have the time this year so I took it to a tractor shop that works mostly on 8-9 N's only. They do a great job on these machines and really know them well.

Now, this problem never started doing this until now. It never quits, just a loud backfire when it's warmed up and almost all the time when it's in deeper grass when it does it.

BTW, the coil is about a year old and so is the ignition key switch. We changed this all out when we converted it to a twelve volt system. Well, it had a twelve volt system but it was just a cobbled up system with bad wiring and such. Far from a professional job which again this tractor shop did this for me and WOW, did it run great until this backfiring started.
I've landed on bad times and currently fighting Parkinson's so the tractor shop is not a option this time.
Thanks again in advance,
Steve
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

" It was tuned up at the beginning of the season (spring time) "

Sometimes even the pros get a bad set of points.

Pull the distributor & check the point gap & bushing wear. You can change points once a week & it won't cure bad bushings.

.015 on all 4 lobes.

While it's off, set the timing.

If you don't know how to set the points & timing, just ask.
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DollarBill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Erratic firing is a classic sign of point troubles. The first poke I'd take would be to verify point gap. One other possible gremlin is worn distributor bushings.
 
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Smokeys427
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Will do Bruce and Dollarbill! Thanks for the quick reply. Best way is just pull the distributor and do it on the bench correct? By the way... Just in case the distributor is worn out, will a 9N distributor work? I have a 9N parts tractor that I could use if needed.
Thanks again,
Steve
 
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DollarBill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, don't abuse yourself by trying to adjust the points with the distributor installed.

I'm pretty sure the 8/9 N distributors are interchangeable - If not, someone will be along shortly to school me.
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

yer good
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

check spark as the others said.

if spark passes.. check to make sure she is not leaning out.. lean carbs can cause various problems. could be lean form a setting on the main..or could be a fuel obstruction.
 
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old
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you haven't pull it yet try choking it when it does that. If that helps and you do a spark test and that is good then your problem is that it is running a tad bit lean or you have something that is causing a fuel flow problem from time to time
 
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Smokeys427
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

old wrote:
(quoted from post at 13:27:05 09/18/12) If you haven't pull it yet try choking it when it does that. If that helps and you do a spark test and that is good then your problem is that it is running a tad bit lean or you have something that is causing a fuel flow problem from time to time


Sorry I haven't got out to pull the distributor yet as have had other things on my plate today but I have pulled the choke thinking the same as you. But no, that doesn't help at all.
I tend to agree with you guys too and a look at the points is in order. could be a bad set of them. I know now days points are nothing like back in the days.
Steve
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

" Best way is just pull the distributor and do it on the bench correct?"

Yes.

The front distributor was designed to come off of the tractor to replace/adjust the points. Remove the wire on the coil, remove the coil bail, remove the distributor cap & take the two bolts off. The base of the distributor has an offset tang & can only go back one way unless you really force it on. Look at how the points & condenser set in the distributor before you start pulling it down! Turn the tang & observe how the points open & close. If this is your first time doing it, draw a sketch!. Make sure you are using quality parts; the points should have a phenolic rubbing block & not the cheap white plastic crap. Use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points. (* see below) Be careful not to ground the tip of the condenser wire to the body of the distributor when you replace the points. Do not break the little copper strip that goes to the points. (If you do, make another out of the old set of points) Also, make sure the condenser wire does not go through the same opening in the distributor that the coil pig tail does. The condenser wire goes the opening on the top right. Look at the old points; are they burned, pitted or mis-aligned? Check the point gap, .015 on all four lobes. Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points & you want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Set the points on the highside of the cam. Make sure you have the star washers under the screws on the points. Dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. And, don’t forget to lube the rubbing block w/ cam lube; not Vaseline, not bearing grease, but cam lube. (** see below)

Now, set the timing. Get a meter or test light, a 21/64” drill bit & a metal straight edge. Put the distributor face down w/ the condenser on the left & the timing plate lock screw on the bottom. Look at the end of the shaft: it has a narrow side & a wide side. Make sure you can tell the difference. Now, place the drill bit in the bottom mounting hole. (this will be your reference point for measuring) . Next, place a straight edge on the wide side of the tang on shaft as shown in fig. FO83 in the I&T FO4 manual. Rotate the shaft CCW (as viewed from rotor side OR CW as viewed from back/tang side) until the straight edge is ¼" beyond the outside edge of the drill bit you stuck in the distributor mounting hole. At this distance, the distributor points should start to open. (get your meter/light out now & check) If not, loosen the timing plate lock screw and turn to advance or retard the timing. (move the plate down to advance timing, up to retard) Remember, each one of those little hash marks represents about 4* of timing. Keep adjusting until you get the proper ¼" setting. (if the plate won’t move, you might need to remove the big C clip to loosen it a bit) As you’re adjusting, eliminate backlash by turning the shaft backwards (CW as viewed from the front) and bring the shaft forwards (CCW as viewed from the front) to measure your setting. This ¼" setting will get you static timing at top dead center.

After you set the points & timing, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor. Before you start, make sure your meter/light works (don't ask....)

With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. What ever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts) Then place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Then, hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush w/ the timing gear cover.

Post back w/ results & any other questions.



* NAPA part numbers:

· Points: FD-6769X

· Condenser: FD-71

· Rotor: FD-104

· Cap: FD-126

** Distributor cam lube: http://www.autoanything.com/fluids-manuals-63-771-1978/201A1960.aspx?kc=FFPMM


" Just in case the distributor is worn out, will a 9N distributor work?"

What wears out is the bushings & insulator. If the bushings are not worn out & the insulator is ok in the 9N distributor, it will bolt right up.

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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote


It does it after about 1/2 hour of brush hogging and usually again it's when I'm in fairly thicker grass and weeds.

KV and fuel demand are at its highest point at that time... I would also confirm fuel quality and volume... A little taste of water will also do'dat...
 
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Ken(Ark)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hobo,NC wrote:


KV and fuel demand are at its highest point at that time... I would also confirm fuel quality and volume... A little taste of water will also do'dat...



My EI unit doesn't need adjustment Wink so when my mutt starts acting up I check the fuel flow .
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

BEST NOT TO GO THEIR... Twisted Evil Checking the fuel don't cost a thang...
Side note to self let the fuel set 10 min are so in a clear glass are plastic jar....
Don't set the jar were it will get knocked into yer cats litter box gas will chap their arse ,,,, yes I have BTDT...

a spoon full of h2o every now and again will drive you nutz....
 


Last edited by Hobo,NC on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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old
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yep almost no part you buy today is as good as the part you got say 20 years ago. Now days people do not take pride in to doing a job. I buy as many parts as I can from one single place and have for 30 plus years so they know I demand good stuff or they know they get it back
 
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NoNewParts
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: anyone have any idea where to start? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

like said, probably a points problem,
but if that checks out,(double check the shops coil/resistor combo for 12v on a front mount)
and it happens under heavy load,
lean, fuel flow problem
what do your plugs look like after some work?
check your tank vent, or cap vent for obstruction.
also, check carefully for a top hose coolant leak or overflow out a cracked overflow tube. a couple drops of coolant misted by the fan will turn a front mount into a backfire machine.

I second Hobo's water in the gas
chased ghosts on one tractor that ran very badly after awhile of working hard.
immediate check for spark and pulling the carb drain plug showed all ok.
"there's NOTHING wrong here...!"
back on, and it would run fine for awhile.
well, turns out, when I was checking the fuel flow out the drain,
I was draining the water out of the bowl.
Once it filled up with the right ratio of water again, it would stumble.
once I cleaned the water out of the tank and sediment bowl,
all was fine
 
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