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To all intersted parties... the 23C again


 
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Tony in Mass.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, the horrible abuse... OK, self abuse? continues... I have a brain storm (?) watching Bill's CD for the 4th time, something you see and hear comes across stronger than on paper? Lately I have the time to attempt a better timing of the injector pump, oh it was waaay off.... I moved the gear by removing the timing gear casting from the block, and rolling the gear with a finger. Welding rod in the block/flywheel, pump sidecover off.. on letter B, rather than 'G'. Ok, she started- with ether of course, and ran, smoked, and stalled, it was still airbound. Too late to continue. So today I bleed the system end to end, started- with ether as usual, and ran, contiued to run, a bit of a throb, lots of power, still too much smoke for my taste. So I took the injectors out.
Last year I had a chore with a compression fitting, Dieseltech sends me the another line- and I popped off that one too! They all obviously fire, carboned up, a couple a bit oily on the outside, but I don't have a tester, so Monday I will see if a shop can check the spray pattern. The question is how much is ...acceptible? normal? destined for life???
Now, while it is on the dead track, I removed the lift cover, interesting accident we had. Cylinder has one deep scratch, looks old, browned, not a fresh gouge, the piston has a small chunk broken off, again, not a fresh break from a couple months ago, but oil stained from ages of soak. I found that piece in the base with a magnet on a stick. The only real recent damage... was two of the three snapped studs holding the cylinder to the cover. I will drill them out with the Bridgeport mill if there is no other cracks etc on the cyl.
Now, 2 questions. One, where the #$%^ is the 'relief valve'? In the base? on the pump? That is the only place left to look, since the fluid is still full. Second... is this an Achilles heal on this model? Since my '55 TO35 had such a bust up it must have took someone 3 or 4 hours to arc weld the damage, and they never fixed the levers properly. Apparently I dodged a bigger bullet than could have happened. Sorry, no pics, very boring so far anyway....
 
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Inno
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Location: NW Ontario Canada, Near Beautiful Rainy Lake

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Relief valve is on the pump itself, right side, pointing towards the rear.
I KNEW you couldn't leave it alone. I'd be doing the same things.
I went to fire up my "new" 35 yesterday and it cranked and cranked and cranked and wouldn't fire. It had been a bit stubborn before so I kept trying until the battery was almost ready to give up. Then I started looking for a problem. I assumed ignition so I went to the 202 and looked at the dist. on it, it was in a different position by 45 but the plug wires were also correspondingly different. To make a long story short I made it look the same as the 202, found the timing marks and set it up with #1 at TDC and she fired right up. It's been much easier to start ever since.
Moral of the story, aside from gas engines being MUCH easier to deal with than diesels? You're gonna find something simple there.........and you're gonna be awefully pleased with yourself. Might even have a celebratory Black Label!
 


Last edited by Inno on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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supergrumpy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I saw all that smoke east of here

thought it was either an unscheduled airshow or cropdusters
 
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Dieseltech
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi Tony! Hydraulic system safety valve is mounted on the hydraulic pump. If you need to I can check your injectors for you too. Still have not finished my 23C yet, still needs rear axle seals and steering box leaks repaired. I just keep using it as it is for now. At least it runs good.
 
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Dan S (NY)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hey Tony, I was waiting for the next 'chapter' in the standard diesel saga. Good to hear you haven't given up on it.

The hydraulic system on these definitely has the potential to blow up the lift cylinder and or top cover although I think that will only happen if the relief valve is clogged or has been replaced with an incorrect one that has the relief pressure set to high. I cracked open the cylinder on an MF50 because I forgot to set the lift height limit on the quadrant after putting everything back together and the relief valve didn't blow. I once looked at a TO35 for sale that I could tell was blowing the relief valve the entire time the lift was all they way up due to things out of adjustment. All it would take is something to suddenly clog the valve and Bang!

Dan
 
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2tractors
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well we still have something to rib you about, 23c, standard deisel, are there more names for it that we need to know so the rest of us don't accidentally buy one?
 
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Inno
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Location: NW Ontario Canada, Near Beautiful Rainy Lake

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Dan S (NY) wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:19:26 09/28/12) Hey Tony, I was waiting for the next 'chapter' in the standard diesel saga. Good to hear you haven't given up on it.

The hydraulic system on these definitely has the potential to blow up the lift cylinder and or top cover although I think that will only happen if the relief valve is clogged or has been replaced with an incorrect one that has the relief pressure set to high. I cracked open the cylinder on an MF50 because I forgot to set the lift height limit on the quadrant after putting everything back together and the relief valve didn't blow. I once looked at a TO35 for sale that I could tell was blowing the relief valve the entire time the lift was all they way up due to things out of adjustment. All it would take is something to suddenly clog the valve and Bang!

Dan


I made the mistake of not "splurging" on a new relief valve when I rebuilt the hyd. pump on my 202. That BANG cost me another $100 or so over what the price of a relief valve would have been.
I splurged the 2nd time and all is well.
 
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samn40
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Although this is the later pump with the filter cannister, it has the relief valve in the same place as the early pump, just beside the control valve, screwed into the back of the pump with the wire tied from the cannister over to it
Sam

 
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Tony in Mass.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes 2, there are several unprintable names I call this engine... my favorite is from a rude version of Waltzing Matilda... involving pommies... don't ask... just google it
 
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Tony in Mass.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hummm. Just think if the FENA club had a plowing day with nothing but these diesel tractors... I bet they could see the haze from the space shuttle....
 
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Nicktrcat
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi everyone,
sorry to see that you do not recognise the symptoms of incorrect valve timing.
On the 23C engine the injection pump is driven by the camshaft,via an idler gear, which is in turn driven by a chain from the crankshaft. You only have to replace this cheap chain to obtain better starting WITHOUT heaters or ether, than any modern diesel car. After fifty years this poor chain be be scrap. It costs $50 or so with tensioner.
On the "pathenews" website there is a video showing how they started on the production line - instantly!
So if you use ether to get it to fire; you will have incorrect valve timing, the last one I repaired had the inlet valve retarded by 23 degrees. With less air to compress and retarded injection is it any wonder why they refuse to start?
Should you wish to repair your 23C to get it to start instantly without heaters or ether; email me.
nicktrcat@gmail.com I will not charge you for my advice
 
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

While I know this is an old thread. I have the fortune or misfortune depending on how you look at it of owning a 1959 TO35 with a 23C, just got it last weekend. The previous owner would start it with either all the time. The ignition switch didn't even turn to the left at all. When I asked the previous owner if the glow plugs/heaters worked he gave me the deer in the headlights look. From that I figured I was on my own. I've got the hood (Bonnet) off right now and I'm going to be removing the front axle to replace the bushing and pin. Based on some of the information I've read a major issue has to do with the timing chain stretching and the tensioners going bad. If that is indeed the case would it be smart of me to replace the chain and tensioners now? I don't have my manual yet, how hard is to to get to the chain?

I'm in the process of straightening out the electrical issues, as I said the switch is no functional and I have a replacement to refit. The heaters all work now, I cleaned up all the connections and there is continuity through each and with all wired in series. I will be changing some of the wiring since some of the insolation is missing in areas. Another question with regards to the heater side of the switch. Would I be best served by installing a solenoid/relay in the wire going to the heating coil under the dash? I don't know what the amperage draw is for the heater circuit but thought it would be easier on the switch.

This isn't my first rodeo with working on mechanical devices, it's just my first working on a tractor.

Thanks
 
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Tony in Mass.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Now my flu feels worse after reading all this again... not even 16 months ago? seems like ages ago.. wish it was..
If yours starts with ether, better than not starting at all, you have the glow plugs working? which actually didn't help mine at all, waste of nearly $400.... that 'bowl' you circled is a filter, there is a cartridge in there, paper element? A bolt thru the center takes it apart, but to bleed all the air out of the lines after you do this might be best after you get the manual, unless you and a friend have bled injector systems before, then it is.... just time..... how much smoke does it make when she does run?
 
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DrLoch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: To all intersted parties... the 23C again Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It smokes when first started then it goes away for the most part. I will have the glow plugs working, on mine the switch wouldn't turn to the left and I'm in the process of replacing it. As I said the glow plugs and resister under the dash are good . I have bled injectors before. I rebuilt the injector pump on my JD 450C loader, governor, mouse turds deal. I removed all the line on that and had to bleed them and you're right about the time.

I just removed the front axle so I can replace the bearing and pin, had some severe caster angle issues with the wore out pin and bushing. I figured if had the front end apart I might change the timing chain. Also found a water pump bearing bad.....
 


Last edited by DrLoch on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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