Yesterday's Tractor Co. Parts for Farm Tractors - Compare our Prices!
Click Here or call 800-853-2651 
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 9N,2N,8N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Traditional YT Forum ViewClassic View   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

roosa master cbc pump

Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic    
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tlock0031
New User


Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 2


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

i have a 500A backhoe with what i believe is the original cbc 431-7AL pump. i bought service manual 2048 because i knew at the least the pump would need completely dissembled and cleaned, and i was right, it was stuck and filled with dry rust. however, two things have become an issue, the drive shaft is sheared in two and i can not get the rotor gear assembly off. None the that will matter unless i can come up with a replacement drive shaft. My overall question is kind of a two parter.

1. the drive shaft does not look all that complicated, so i am thinking i can machine one out, without it i can't even use it as a core and the only others i have found would be replacements with no core for around 1600 bucks.

2. would going to one of the later model pumps - DB or JDB, be a better choice? change out the pump, injectors and lines? i think i found a 3020 diesel with everything there, so maybe rebuilding that pump and installing the rest would be a cheaper way to go.

Any thoughts from anybody with experience on these models would be great. At least these CBC's were used on a lot of tractors, not just deere, so maybe my odds of finding a complete one in better shape than mine would be possible

I have read a lot of posts on here and on jdcrawlers forum and i know there are a number of knowledgeable members, but no questions quite like mine. feel free to email me as well.

Thanks
 
Back to top
View user's profile
tlock0331
Regular


Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 136


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

let me rephrase the dry rust portion, its not really a rust, its like a film, oklahoma dirt red in color and kinda peels or wipes off, no pitting has been found on any components.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
bob15
Regular


Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 365


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote


It sounds like you have a seized pump. If so, the H&R and driveshaft are junk. The cbc pumps are obsolete. A new replacement will be needed. Unfortunately, you need the correct pump for that engine, I'm not sure if the 3020 pump is the same.

Depending on the serial number you need pump:

AR50144 FUEL INJECTION PUMP (ROOSA-MASTER NO. JDB431AL2401) (JD500C, JD510)

or

AR32561 FUEL INJECTION PUMP STANADYNE DBGVC431-3AJ, (JD500, JD500A*)

As for machining a driveshaft, how do you plan on heat treating it? What metal are you going to use? Can you meet tolerances of .00001? Or are you just being cheap and want to screw over the person taking the core? How do you plan on explaining the rotor that probably doesn't turn and has a witness mark of metal to metal contact between the rotor and head?

bob
 
Back to top
View user's profile
cjd12000
Regular


Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 123


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a cbc633-18al if you think the part from it will work to get your going let me know it worked just was hard to start tractor. I don"t know what the differences would be.this one came off a 4020
 
Back to top
View user's profile
cjd12000
Regular


Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 123


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

In the drive shaft I know 4 to 6 cylinder or you can try Nelson parts 18007204020 they might have a known good used one
 
Back to top
View user's profile
tlock0031
New User


Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 2


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

cjd12000, thanks for the response, but i think
there may be to many differences between the two,
at least it looks that way from the service
manual, but giving nelson's a call and see if they
have the driveshaft or a kit would sure be worth
it.

and Bob....while i appreciate the response and the
part number info, there is no reason to be a
richard and call me a cheap donkey by saying or
implying that i am only out to screw over a diesel
shop. if by me asking about machining one out to
TRY pisses you off i am sorry, but for the time it
would take me to try, and if the diesel gods were
in my favor, and it worked, i would be in good
shape, if it doesnt work out, then what am i
really out? nothing..just a little time using my
new All Purpose CBC drive shaft heat treater 3000
and my space age steel alloys..All it does is
leave me back where i started...no pump, from
there i weight the options of upgrading to a newer
pump and lines, which sounds like a better idea to
me, or spending the 1600 on a rebuilt pump because
i KNOW i have a junk core...not that you will ever
know, but i happen to be square in my dealings
with people, i would not be where i am today if i
was any other way, now...if someone has burned you
in such a manner that you got a junk core and lost
money, there is nothing i can do about it, nor
will i apologize for someone screwing you, i do
thank you for asking me some good questions, but
please keep your assumptions of me and my
abilities to yourself, since i will extend you the
same courtesy.

leave it to the internet and a posting forum to
bring out the best in people...especially on this,
a polite forum...at least 96.75% of the posters i
read on here seem like decent people...
 
Back to top
View user's profile
donjr
Tractor Guru


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 7074


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm not sure how close the pump on your rig was, but I had a 2520 that came with JD 'C' pump. The shaft galled up years ago. The tractor was about twenty years old and from what I could find was JD had diconntinued the 'C' pump about ten years earlier, supported parts for five years and there were no more parts available. I had to retrofit it to a JDB pump, and that also lead to replacing the injector lines. That was on a 219 engine. There should be plenty of the B series pumps and lines around to replace it.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
MSD
Tractor Expert


Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 1825


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a German made 2020 with the Bosch pump on it. It needed rebuilding but 2 diesel shops said the rotor was shot and none were available. I contacted these folks and they said they could get the rotor rebuilt by shipping it to Venezuela. Took awhile but they got it fixed for me and it was cheaper than finding a used pump (there were no used one's out there) and still having to have it rebuilt.
http://www.mylexinternational.com/injectionpumps.htm

 
Back to top
View user's profile
tlock0331
Regular


Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 136


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Donjr, thanks for the response. i didnt even dawn on me to look at the 2520 models, i just kinda assumed that they would have been a newer or different style, plus there has to be more of them around than the 3010/3020 diesels.

I did get an email from a guy who seemed quite pleasant and he may have that later style jdb pump and i wouldnt think it should be to tough to find the newer injector lines. All this does make it seem like upgrading to that B style would be a better direction to go, especially since the hoe is already down, may as well make all the upgrades at once.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
cjd12000
Regular


Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 123


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I gave the wrong number it 18007304020 and i bought a CBC to replace that one I got from them it was 400 but the might have everything needed to update to a different pump and lines are not that bad priced new if you have to buy them.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Tx Jim
Tractor Guru


Joined: 14 Feb 1999
Posts: 17816
Location: Coyote Flats,Tx

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

tlock0331 wrote:
(quoted from post at 23:38:57 10/06/12) Donjr, thanks for the response. i didnt even dawn on me to look at the 2520 models, i just kinda assumed that they would have been a newer or different style, plus there has to be more of them around than the 3010/3020 diesels.


2520 CBC pump drive shaft(AT29831) has a different part number than the 500 pump drive shaft(R45042).
 
Back to top
View user's profile
bob15
Regular


Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 365


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

tlock0031 wrote:
(quoted from post at 20:20:17 10/06/12)

1. the drive shaft does not look all that complicated, so i am thinking i can machine one out, without it i can't even use it as a core and the only others i have found would be replacements with no core for around 1600 bucks.


I read this statement and it sounds like you're trying to pull a fast-one on a dealer. sorry if I'm wrong, but read it again....

I have seem dealers get screwed over with pumps when they try to warranty them and send then back to us. I will take them apart and find all sorts of hack-jobs, including one that had a welded drive tang on a once-seized pump. Others so full of rust, you'd think that were using it as a water pump. When we deny the claim, the dealer must either find the person who brought the pump in or they take the loss.

You cannot use 6 cylinder components such as the driveshaft, cam, head, and rotor in a 4 cylinder pump. Nor can you take a "generic" 4 cylinder rotary pump and put it onto any engine. It might or might not run, but engine performance can suffer and the potential for catastrophic engine failure and also occur.


bob
 
Back to top
View user's profile
DONMYEIL
Long Time User


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 989


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If the shaft broke thats because the pump head has seized. You will need to get a kit and convert to a DB PUMP. This will be pricey. If you are seeing rust then the entire fuel system needs cleaned . If you dont you will be buying a new pump again. That shaft is designed to twist off , thats to save the camshaft an drive train.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
tlock0331
Regular


Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 136


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Cjd12000, If you wanted to email me about the pump you have I may have a use for it anyway and thanks for the phone number update haha

Tx Jim, thanks for the response, now I have another question. My pump is a CBC-431-7AL, p/n AR-41625, and at my last count, which may be wrong, I could have had up to 4 different pump options, so if another tractor, regardless of model or color, was supplied with one of the same four pump part numbers do they all share the same drive shaft? Please excuse my ignorance on that since I have not looked at all the part numbers for all four pumps but in my early thinking on this, if four different model pumps all carried the same drive shaft, I would have thought that someone would be reproducing them, the drive shaft that is and as of now, I cant even find one to buy, which led me to thinking about turning out my own and trying to resurrect mine. In my reading and talking to a couple people, I have found that going to a JDB more than likely will require something like an adapter kit, just for the pump mounting, and as stated before, the same model injector lines to match the pump. And on a side note Tx Jim, I have enjoyed reading your posts over the years and just wanted to thank you for that.

Bob, can we call this a misunderstanding? You read my statement from the perspective of me trying to screw someone and i make my statement based on me trying something to see if i can make it work and did not include that i wasnt going to try and dump a junk pump on some shop, i thought my including the price of 1600 bucks for a pump without a core would have covered that, clearly i did a poor job of that, my apologies.

Your statement regarding the dealers and your relationship them does make for some interesting questions and maybe you can help with them. Keep in mind that my questions are ONLY regarding a CBC pump. Since these are obsolete pumps and none of these parts exist new, then what defines a rebuilt pump? Almost all the posts i have read on here and the crawlers forum regarding the cbc pump come mainly from an individual named jdemaris. he seems like a very knowledgeable person and very consistent with his statements that armed with the service manual, reasonable intelligence and mechanical ability, a pump “rebuild” would equate to not much more than a seal kit in the price range of about 50-85 dollars and a few hours. So I have to ask, does a core and 800 dollars justify that? That’s a tough one to answer, but if all I am lacking is a drive shaft, and I can turn one out, get the seal kits that I need for it and it works, why would I not try, then maybe I could help others with that knowledge, or for that matter, turn out a few more and help those in the same position I am in? Potentially seems like a win-win.

When it comes to warranty work, would you put it on the pump supplier to enforce their warranty to the end user? If the supplier doesn’t take note of when and where they sent a pump and blindly take them in without inspecting them, then I would agree with that yes, people are going to try and get over on the supplier and as the guy who rebuilds them for the supplier, there is nothing you can do about that. I relate this to one my other jobs, if I supply a panel with plcs & vfds in it and the contractor allows it to sit outside, doors open or allows the electrician to put conduit holes in it and it rains, soaking my panel ruining my supplied electronics, I don’t warranty that, nor will I go out and do a panel inspection for free. When I load a panel on the shippers truck, who entered an agreement with my customer and not me, and they drop it or damage it, that’s not my warranty. If I find an electrician who wires a 500 horse pump in a 3-phase configuration that the name plate does not support, my warranty is over. That kind of information is plainly stated, and I have had my share of legal battles regarding issues like this, I have not lost any of them due to my ability to stand behind my work and protect myself from knuckleheads. I have ------ off my share of contractors and engineers, and I have only gained customers because of the way I do business and conduct myself, even the ones that have fought with me still respect me for what I do and have done and don’t look backward at our disagreements. i don’t enjoy the winning feeling though because I hate fighting like that. So some interesting things can be said about that warranty issue vs what is supplied or a core exchange, makes for an interesting conversation that very seldom do two people ever see eye to eye and maybe would be better for a different post, sorry about my tangent there…trying to stay focused here.

As far as using 6 cylinder components I had no intention of using any, I had also not thought about grabbing some junk yard special out of a yanmar 4 cylinder and thought that trying it on my hoe was a good idea as well, just wanted to clarify that.

I would like to ask you though Bob, given the supplied information would you find it a better idea to go with the same pump as was supplied on the hoe or upgrade to a newer jdb? I am interested in your thoughts on both pumps.

one of the drawbacks of postings, you think it, you type it and it seems correct, then other people read it and go wtf? try speaking english or having a complete thought haha

Thanks
 
Back to top
View user's profile
bob15
Regular


Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 365


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: roosa master cbc pump Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A misunderstanding, a BIG yes.

The pump you have is unfortunately junk. As was stated earlier, the driveshaft is designed to be the "weak link" in the pump in case of a seizure. A seizure is when the rotor (spins in inside the head)and the head have metal to metal contact. Or what sounds like in your case, fuel contaminants or debris. If the driveshaft doesn't break, engine parts will, be it a gear or two. then serious money is lost in repairs and parts. Basically the driveshaft and the head (parts which the injection lines bolt to) are no good.

The cbc pump has been obsolete for 30 years. Even if one was found usable, things do wear out in the pump. Linkages and bushings can wear and cause leaks. If those parts cannot be replaced, then you're dripping money away in a fuel leak.

The replacement pump is the best option. You might be able to find used injection lines off another 500a that had the pump replaced. That would be the best case scenario. I would also replace the injectors if they are the pencil-type. there could also be debris in them.

Do I agree with the charges shop have for rebuild? No. but on the other hand, the equipment they buy is big money. Test stands, SAE & ISO test injectors, tools, overhead, pop-testers, send techs for schooling, etc. Am I justifying the cost, no, but sometimes it's better to spend the money to have the pump spun across a test stand and not just rebuilt on a workbench. And no, I don't work for a dealer, but rather at Stanadyne's Engineering Center.

Hope this helps....bob
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Yesterday's Tractors Forum Index -> John Deere All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
TRACTOR   PARTS TRACTOR   MANUALS
Same-Day Shipping! Most of our stocked parts ship the same day you order (M-F).  Expedited shipping available, just call!  Most prices for parts and manuals are below our competitors.  Compare our super low shipping rates!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor.  We are a Company you can trust and have generous return policies!   Shop Online Today or call our friendly sales staff toll free (800) 853-2651.

YT Home  |  Forums Home

Copyright © 1997-2014 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters