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Power

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504
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It is 220 feet from my electric meter(200amp) to the shed, I will need at least one 50 amp circuit plus lights. What do I need for direct bury line? I am tired of the lights going out when I use the skill saw. I am just running a drop cord now.
 
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Dusty MI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote


You need to know what your total load would be at any time, then add some to that just for future. Then google voltage drop, to figure wire size.

Dusty
 
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Billy Shafer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with Dusty. That would be the way to do it.
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Okay heres the deal, but I can ONLY provide an answer based on the info you provided!!!!!!

1) You mentioned a "50 amps" so heres the voltage drop according to a formula I found (NO WARRANTY I did this in a hurry) and the data you provided:

If you use # 2 AWG Copper Wire
220 feet one way from meter to load
50 amps of current
VOLTAGE DROP 3.53 Volts
Percentage Voltage Drop 2.9%

If you use # 1 AWG Copper Wire
220 feet one way meter to load
50 amps of current
Voltage Drop 2.8 volts
Percentage Voltage Drop 2.34%

OF COURSE, NO 6 WIRE CAN HANDLE 50 AMPS BUTTTTTTTTTTTTT YOU SAY 220 FEET AND YOU ARE CONCEREND WITH VOLTAGE DROP, SO AT 50 AMPS IM ONLY ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION AND CONCERNS REMEMBER !!!!! If you wanna just use 6 or 4 gauge AND LOCAL AUTHORITY ALLOWS IT OR THE LOAD IS ACTUALLY LESS (in which case smaller wire suffices) ITS YOUR MONEY AND YOUR CHOICE

NOTE When I was a design engineer I didnt like over 2% in Voltage Drop I.E. you would need even bigger wire, 1/0 yields only a 2.21 volt 1.85% Voltage drop

NOTE If your actual load is less then 50 amps, then, of course, the wire size can be reduced, BUT YOU CANT MAKE THIS CALCULATION WITHOUT KNOWING THE LOAD, SO BEWARE OF BILLY BOB AND BUBBAS ADVICE AS TO WIRE SIZE (considering voltage drop) WITHOUT KNOWING THE ACTUAL LOAD!!!!!!!!!

2) Okay you stated from your "electric meter" to the shed NOT from any Main Distribution Panel out to what would be considered a "Sub Panel"

NOTE if thats the case, for a 120/240 volt single phase three wire service from the meter base out to the shed YOU CAN GET BY WITH RUNNING ONLY THREE WIRES (L1, L2, Neutral) just the same as you only run 3 wires from a service transformer to your meter and meter into main panel.

HOWEVER if you run from the homes main distribution panel out to a "sub panel" in the shed THEN YOU NEED FOUR WIRES (L1, L2, Neutral, Equipment Ground) and at the sheds "sub panel" keep the Neutral and Ground Busses SEPERATE AND ISOLATED FROM EACH OTHER

3) SUBJECT TO LOCAL AUTHORITY RULES NOTTTTTTTTTTT ANYTHING SAID HERE You may get by using direct burial rated cable like UF Underground Feeder or USE Underground Service Entrance and again for 120/240 volt single phase three wire service 3 CONDUCTOR FROM METER TO SHED OR 4 CONDUCTOR TO SHED FORM HOUSE MAIN PANEL

4) If from meter to shed, at the sheds panel the Neutral Buss is bonded to the Ground Buss and the Neutral Buss has a No 4 "Grounding Electrode Conductor" ran outside and attached to a "Grounding Electrode" which may be a "made electrode" such as driven copper rod or rods (SUBJECT to Local Authority Rules NOT whats anyone here including myself thinks, especially Bubba and Billy Bob lol) and other suitable approved grounding elecrodes such as metallic water pipes and structural foundation steel etc etc.

NOTE check with local authority because I have seen the Neutrals grounded 1) Up on the weatherhead service riser 2) in the Meter Base 3) Inside the Main Panel SO THE ABOVE MAY BE WRONG IF THE LOCAL AUTHORITY WANTS NEUTRAL GROUNDED IN THE METER BASE !!!!!!

5) If youre running from a main panel out to a sub panel, you still need a "grounding electrode" at the shed remember, its just that you need to carry 4 instead of 3 wires and at reh shed Neutral and ground are NOT bonded but seperate and isolated

Okay I do my best to give an answer based on THE INFO YOU PROVIDED........BUT LOCAL AUTHORITY IS WHAT COUNTS, NOT WHAT I OR OTHERS THINK....And I havent designed in years and am rusty on the latest codes SO NO WARRANTY, but I do my best........

You asked what you need for 50 amps and were concerned with VOLTAGE DROP, so thats the answer I gave you. I wouldnt run any less then a 60 amp 120/240 volt service if it were me and even better a 100 amp SO YOU HAVE TO SIZE YOUR WIRE TO MATCH THE LOAD NOTTTTTTTTTTT WHATS GUESSED AT HERE.

I know I left a lot out, so if any other experienced electricians and engineers here can add to this or correct me Id sure appreicate it..........

John T Too long retired EE and rusty on this but like to help the best I can
 
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Greenday
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I would think you wouldnt want any less than a 100 amp service to your shop. So with that being said # 4 wire would be the absolute smallest wire you want to go with. I would go with the next size heavier wire to be on the safe side.
 
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David G
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That is a LOT of copper, I would run it in Aluminum, John T can probably size that for you.
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

No 4 wire drawing 50 amps over 220 feet drops 5.62 volts or 4.68% while No 2 only drops 3.53 volts or 2.94%. Dern copper is expensiveeeeeeeee lol

John T
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Reliance Electric makes a feed through transfer switch with four breakers to supply out buildings direct . Just install at the utility pole and run four cables to your shed. Three insulated in a conduit and a bare copper beside the conduit.
 
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DaveK(IN)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Why would you run the GEC outside of the conduit? Code requires that all the wires be run together in the conduit.
 
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MarkB_MI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Go big. John T knows his stuff.

Personally, I would run 4 conductors, using USE (Underground Service Equipment) cable, which will get you 240 to your shed. MINIMUM AWG #2 aluminum, but bigger is better. 2 hots, one neutral, one ground. Ground rod at the outbuilding.
 
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Brian G. NY
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with Greenday; my shop is 220 feet from my main panel also.
Back in '96 I ran 3 2-0 aluminum cables in conduit out to the 100 amp breaker which seemed to work just fine.
However, after discussions by John T. and others here and on other forums, I "saw the light" and ran a #4 copper ground wire back to the main panel and separated the ground and neutral in the sub-panel at the barn. Luckily, I "saw the light" just before the price of copper skyrocketed. LOL
 
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504
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yea I know that I didn t give all of the information. I am just trying to get an idea of the cost. The REC puts a 200 amp main breaker panel on the pole for the house. I will hook up there and use another breaker panel in the shed. 50amp is for the welder and compressor(one outlet two plugs) By the time I get some lights out there I should just wire it for 200amp and be done with it. Before somebody points out that two boxes each at 200 amps is a 200 amp over load, the REC has told me as soon as I blow their breaker, they will upgrade my service. It will be just a home shop. It has to be better than what I am doing now,I can not run a portable compressor at all.(250ft of drop cord) Thank you all for your comments and replies.
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR

You don't want aluminum direct burial cable.
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Youre welcome, let me know if you need more specific help

John T
 
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David G
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Power Reply to specific post Reply with quote

B&D, I realize you do not like aluminum, but everyone is using it now due to the high cost of copper.

Go price enough copper to run 50 amps 200'
 
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