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what is stock? for the rich or the poor?

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north puller
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I don't know, or really care to know what mopower has for blocks in his tractor, but it has me thinking.

Jdbpuller said in a recent post "stock means stock on the outside", which got me thinking.

Another post about how NATPA is becoming like NHRA has me thinking.

I am a pull organizer, running a "stock" pull. My pull, like some others in the area, used to be heavily regulated, similar to div 2, with the idea that it would give the true "stock" farm tractor a chance to be competitive. After all, how could a little old massey 30 compete with an Oliver 77 sporting an 88 motor, or a 310? How could a little old farmall m compete with a mini ub sporting a 403?

Tractors had to have all parts, front to back, (not including hubs, rims, and tires) with the correct casting numbers. Especially correct numbers on blocks, heads, and crankcases. This proved to be a terribly time consuming job for the teck crew.

But along the way I got to thinking about "stock on the outside". Why is it not ok for a guy to buy a $1500 403 motor and put it in his UB, but a guy can build a $5000 409 stroker for his M and all is good?

A guy can't use a power block, or a Murphy's block in his G (we wouldn't alow power blocks), but he can stroke it to 10".

A guy can't put a 310 in his 77 oliver, but a farmall h can have a motor built bigger than a 450.

Seems that the "stock" classes, similar to div 2, have become a class that caters to the wealthy who can aford to keep their motors "stock on the outside" while making more power than those who would simply repower with a bigger motor.

A class or division for stock type tractors would be nice to have, but if the engines arn't required to be stock on the inside, then why require them to be stock on the outside?

The stock outside, giant stroker motors that are prowling aroung the stock classes are not helping the poor man who can't afford to "hop up" his tractor.

The stock on the outside rule is really killing the poor man's chance, along with the not poor but not rich man's chance, in the very class that was meant for the small time puller: the stock, or near stock class.

Today, the rules at my pull are much more relaxed. A speed limit keeps things toned down somewhat. I know that the big power tractors still have the upper hand on the true stock ones, but why pretend that they are pure stock? If a guy has 100hp in a tractor that from factory had 50, then who cares what components are used to get it there?
 
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Mopower
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Good point north puller. Some stock appearing engines can pass as stock by casting numbers. I've seen some div1 tractors that don't even follow that logic. Our low speed limit equalizes it somewhat, even though there's no way to restrict M&W kits and the like. Here are our club's pure stock rules (aside from the General Rules):

Barnyard 2.5 MPH

1. Any regulations not mentioned for Barnyard can be obtained from Clintonia’s general tractor pulling rules.

2. Entry: A tractor may pull in any other class if it meets the criteria. Oliver 88, M-M U, Farmall M, Massey 44, Case DC, Deere G, and like tractors may not pull in classes below 5500#. Oliver 66, M-M R, Farmall H, Allis WC, Deere B, and like tractors may not pull in classes below 3500#.

3. Rims / Wheels / Tires: Tractors must have OEM diameter & width rims. This also applies to welded rims that have been fitted to replace steel wheels. If a tractor was not originally equipped with pressed steel centers, OEM cast iron or spoke centers must be used. Use original hubs only. Tire size may be one size over OEM width for that make/model of tractor. No sharpened tires. “Road worn” tires will be inspected and are subject to track officials’ discretion.

4. Engine: Engines need to have a stock block and be naturally aspirated unless originally equipped from the factory with a blower or turbo. 10% over factory high-idle RPM (see chart) is allowed using a working governor. Stock heads, manifolds, and carburetors are to be used. Engine parts not listed in a manufacturer’s parts book for that specific model cannot be used. No electronic ignition systems or coils that vary from original shape. The only exceptions include magneto/distributor and 6V/12V generator/alternator conversions.

5. Appearance: If a part is not listed in the manufacturer’s parts book, it cannot be used. No aluminum or chrome is allowed except for exhaust pipes. All covers and guards shall be in place and made using original specs (steel or iron). The tractor seat must use stock mountings. No fabricated engine shrouds allowed. Any altered items are subject to officials’ discretion.

6. Weights & Hitch: No weights shall extend beyond eleven feet from the center of the rear axle. Hitch point will extend beyond the radius of the rear tires and 19” or less from the ground. Wheelie bars are recommended and may become mandatory.
 
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mm585
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Being one of the board members for the Iowa state fair I understand what you are saying. We have a stock class that is what I would call div2. My b---h is that the FFA kids wont bring the tractors they restored over and pull them. Why would they want to? They cant even get the chain tight and the rest of the so called stock tractors spin out with ease. There is a bad A john deere that pulls stock and brags that he has close to 100 horse, so he idles down the track in third gear and beats everyone by 25 feet. What is the fun in shooting fish in a barrel? If you have the ponys step up to the plate with some big cut rubber and run with tractors of your degree. I dont pull in the stock class but I feel that the term STOCK meams STOCK. Now is where Ill step on some toes. Allis, 14.9-28 max tire size, stock block, no d17,I can live with a late manifold. Oliver, no 99, no 195GK, no twelve port head, stock block. Deere, no power blocks, no heisler heads, no duplex carbs on early tractors. IH, stock block, no propane heads on gasoline tractors. MM, case and deere, same rules as IH. 15.5 maximum tire size for all but allis. (If you allis guys can find 15.5-28 tires thats legal, good luck on that). NO CUT TIRE OF ANY KIND!!!!Why? cut tires were not an opition on any tractor ever! This is the stock class!!! Now that you have all read my Idea for the 2013 Iowa state fair stock class rules, Im going to go hide. Im sure the insults will fly, and that im a stupid SOB, thats fine. Everyone needs to think about what the term stock means!!!
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Limit the speed, no cut tires and no tractors on the track that weigh less than their factory shipping weight.
 
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mm585
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hats off to buickandeere! I forgot the part about factory shipping weight. Also, 3.0 mph, and stock drawbar not to be more than 18 inches high. I think the 11 foot rule is fair on the front weight bracket, eveyone can be the same there then.
 
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mm585
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hats off to buickandeere! I forgot the part about factory shipping weight. Also, 3.0 mph, and stock drawbar not to be more than 18 inches high. I think the 11 foot rule is fair on the front weight bracket, eveyone can be the same there then.
 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes 585 you are an S.O.B.. LOL! The stock class is got to be one of the hardest and most pain in the a"" classes to deal with. What is a real stock tractor? I really wish we could have a for real STOCK out of the factory class. Are M&W kits allowed, are later blocks and heads allowed, bigger tires then factory allowed. If you put a complete M&W kit in a stock M and then add a 450 lp head-you have a healthy tractor.Is this stock? Is it factory or replacement parts? And yes-I'm sick and tired of people that can't hang anymore in a DIV 3 or 4 class and drop down to a like DIV 1 or 2 class with the same tractor that pulled in DIV 3 and 4. This class was made for people on a budget,for kids, FFA and 4-H projects, a parade tractor or just the tractor that belonged to grandpa that we got going and want to start tractor pulling with. We all have to start somewhere. Let this people have some fun and leave them alone. We must try to get new blood and the young involved or the sport will die. Instead you have the same old three tractors in a class with all three tractors cheating and bitching for a $10.00 trophy. "I've always wanted to pull stock class but, I don't have enough power so I pull the open classes".I've heard this time and time again. And to you guys and girls just starting- do not let people get you down at the track or on this forum. There is never a dumb questions just alot of dumb answers. Pull where you belong!
 
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smoking310
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I can appreciate all the opinions that have been posted. My beef with these big motor big money tractors is pull against a worthy competator. For instance, at a local event a big motor big money tractor entered a class that would dodge some of the out of town competition. How can you be the best without beating the best, then come and brag that you win against the local competition.
 
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MNJDG
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

mm585 wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:39:36 10/23/12) Being one of the board members for the Iowa state fair I understand what you are saying. We have a stock class that is what I would call div2. My b---h is that the FFA kids wont bring the tractors they restored over and pull them. Why would they want to? They cant even get the chain tight and the rest of the so called stock tractors spin out with ease. There is a bad A john deere that pulls stock and brags that he has close to 100 horse, so he idles down the track in third gear and beats everyone by 25 feet. What is the fun in shooting fish in a barrel? If you have the ponys step up to the plate with some big cut rubber and run with tractors of your degree. I dont pull in the stock class but I feel that the term STOCK meams STOCK. Now is where Ill step on some toes. Allis, 14.9-28 max tire size, stock block, no d17,I can live with a late manifold. Oliver, no 99, no 195GK, no twelve port head, stock block. Deere, no power blocks, no heisler heads, no duplex carbs on early tractors. IH, stock block, no propane heads on gasoline tractors. MM, case and deere, same rules as IH. 15.5 maximum tire size for all but allis. (If you allis guys can find 15.5-28 tires thats legal, good luck on that). NO CUT TIRE OF ANY KIND!!!!Why? cut tires were not an opition on any tractor ever! This is the stock class!!! Now that you have all read my Idea for the 2013 Iowa state fair stock class rules, Im going to go hide. Im sure the insults will fly, and that im a stupid SOB, thats fine. Everyone needs to think about what the term stock means!!!



Why are the power blocks and heisler heads not legal, were they not built to increase power in the field for stock farm tractors. The power block doesn't even have as much compression as a new set of aluminum pistons. The heisler head was designed to allow good use of better fuels available to farmers using older tractors.
 
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MMZAck
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

In reading the discussion a thought popped into my head. It seems there should be a class somewhere between 3mph or 3.5mph and open (no speed limit) for NATPA. I find the comment about "I pull the open class because it is easier than the stock" very interesting. Guys have strong tractors, yes, but perhaps would like to compete in a faster speed limit class but not open ended. Get my drift? This might free up the stock classes for more stock type tractors.

This is one of those beating a dead horse kind of discussions. We can talk all day about what casting numbers are legal and what is fair but it just complicates things and the tech checks become tedious. Tunica and the USAP really have the best rules dialed in to address stock vs. modified and what engine components are allowed. Basically if it bolts up, run it. Pick your speed limit class and lets go. The 3mph stock class has restrictions on tire size & cut and tractor weight, so even fresh off the farm guys can compete. We had a guy on a bone stock Ford 800 win the 4000lb 3mph class last spring against some regular pullers. Most folks who bolt a 403 in a UB, 310 in a 77, Gleaner in a WC, etc. like to compete in the faster classes anyway and it keeps the cubic dollars required lower. It also makes for a better pull since nobody likes to stall out in 1st gear. Most guys who have more power run bigger tires anyway that put them in the faster classes. My take on it anyway.

Zack

PS - Poking fun - no problem with the Deere power blocks. They need all the help they can get to catch up. Smile
 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

MNJDG think about what you just said. Heisler heads and power blocks were built to gain power or they wouldent have been built. Bigger bore, raised compresion. NOT STOCK!
 
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mm585
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

MMzack, Look at the post here from the mn deere guy. His thought is that power blocks and heisler heads on a deere should be legal in the stock class. The problem in my area IS guys with 310 77 olivers and gleaner allis tractors DO think they should be allowed in the stock class. THATS THE PROBLEM!!!!!
 
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mm585
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

MNJDG, I have the original heisler pamplet that tells the horse power gains using there heads, and pistons.They didnt seem to much care obout old tractors and new fuel. Tsc power Block, They should have called it the big bore low compresion block then? Excellent attempt at pushing the rules though!! If Deere didnt manufacture the block or head for the modle tractor its bolted to then it isnt as it came from the factory, Thus IT ISNT STOCK! This should include a flat head on a late G!
 
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MNJDG
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

boomgarden wrote:
(quoted from post at 01:26:05 10/24/12) MNJDG think about what you just said. Heisler heads and power blocks were built to gain power or they wouldent have been built. Bigger bore, raised compresion. NOT STOCK!


Like Zack said, we need all the help we can get. John Deere were overweight and under powered compared to other brand. So as fuels got better they needed something to keep up.

I have pulled from bone stock to bored and stroked John Deeres, found no matter what, if you win, you are called a cheater.
 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: what is stock? for the rich or the poor? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Mm585 the thing u.don't.get tho is that you can put the same stuff in a wc block. But why should u have to switch it into a wc? Then u have to buy two motors. Just bolt in a gleaner and save time space and money. There is no other advantage past that. Not like a 310 in an oliver..whooole different thing there
 
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