Hough transmission

[Bill in IL]

I have an old Hough H60B articulate loader. Its probably from the early 70's vintage.

Transmission has always been slightly weak. On the hottest days of the year the machine runs great its responsive and has great power. As the outdoor temps cool it (torque converter) gets sluggish and weak whereas high gear is unusable. It improves as the machine warms but still not great. I have it in the shop to attempt to look at this but not sure where to go. I am thinking its a restriction in the charging pump circuit or maybe just a weak torque converter.

Several times this fall after I started the machine it would not move. After shifting forward to reverse 6-8 time it slowly inched forward and began to move more and more until it moved normally. After I got it moving it was fine for the rest of the day. Not sure if that is related to the overall weak transmission or another problem.

The manual explains how it works and how to rebuild it just doesn't say much about troubleshooting. Can these torque converters be rebuilt? Is it O rings and gaskets or what really wears in a torque converter?
 

[BCnT]

sounds like some seals have hardened up on you and bypass fluid till they warm up and get flexible...i have had great results with K&W TransX...it comes in a blue and silver quart container...cant tell you how many transmissions i have gotten another 20-30 thousand miles out of.
some folks will say its snake oil,but sounds like you dont have anything to lose trying it.
 

[Dr. Walt]

Check the WEIGHT (viscosity) of your trans fluid, it sounds like you may have too heavy a weight fluid in your trans - ie: when it's cold, fluid is heavy & sluggish, but as it warms up & becomes thinner the trans works fine.
 

[Mike Van]

Sounds exactly like my old Trojan last winter - I have no idea what oil was in it, but it was pretty bad. New ATF type A this past summer, it's like a new machine.
 

[Bill in IL]

Oil was changed a year or two ago. About 100 operating hours with dextron ATF. Cleaned the sump at that time overall the transmission was pretty clean at that time.
 

[DGH]

Usually when that type of transmission goes bad it shows up when hot not cold. I am thinking like you that there is a restriction some where. Maybe a plugged filter or a collapsed suction line, or a crack in a suction line letting air. Maybe take the pan off and check the oil pick system. I bet it is a simple problem but may not be easy to find. If it runs well hot there can't be anything major wrong!
 

[Dennis K (WA)]

Good morning,
My first thought was too heavy oil also but you have used the right stuff.
The other replies are also valid like a suction leak.
You did not mention pressures at all. Main (clutch) pressure should be 160psi-180psi. You should have this in neutral, in any gear, at idle or hi idle. Do you know what the pressures are? Does the machine have a gauge on the dash? If no gauge you can tap in a gauge at a pipe plug on the selector valve on top of the transmission. This is the main pressure port. Use a 300-500psi gauge, not one that goes to 3000 or something.
Another thought has to do with the selector valve. It has three spools, a F&R spool, range spool and a declutch spool which is activated by the left brake if it is still stock. The shift spools are probably ok if the detents feel good but maybe a problem in the declutch spool. Disconnect the line to it, some were air, and try it. If the declutch spool is not moving properly it will not allow pressure to get to the clutches.
Torque converters are rebuildable but probably not your problem.

good luck and keep us posted on progress
Dennis
 

[Bill in IL]

Clutch pressures are in the 160 to 180 range as you describe. There is a guage on the dash to show that. Even when the machine will not move on startup clutch pressures are in range. The brakes do not work but the declutch pedal will take the transmission out of gear.

I think the problem is more related to the torque converter side of the transmission. I would describe its operation as sluggish and it takes about half throttle to make it really move. I have an old michigan 75a that responds to throttle much better than this machine. Shifting is normal and I can feel detents though probably worn as can be expected.

I think the suggestion of a suction leak or collapsing suction line are possibilities. Any suggestions on determining a suction leak or collapsed line? When I crawled under there they all seemed round and hard with age no bad ends or leaks from those hoses. It will be a healthy expense to replace all the lines in that circuit cause they are 1.25 to 1.5 inches in diameter so I don't want to go throwing parts at it.

I will give it a closer look tonight. Maybe drain the transmission and check suction hoses closer.

I remember one day this fall I drove down a steep hill and could not get back up it till the machine warmed up a little more. I gave it full throttle and it could only go up half the hill till about the 3rd try.
 

[DGH]

Well if your oil pressure is steady under all conditions that would tend to rule out a suction problem. That would bring me back to looking for control issues that were mentioned before.
A torque converter is a simple device and they either work or not, and temperature does not have a lot to do with it.
 

[Dennis K (WA)]

Hi Bill,
Now that we know you have good clutch pressure I'll give you another test.
Apply the brakes using the right pedal or put the machine against a bank so the wheels will not turn. Try each gear, the driveline between the converter and transmission should not turn while doing this no matter what the rpm as long as the wheels do not spin. Driveline should spin free in neutral or when declutching. If everything is tip top you may not be able to hold it in 1st gear. If driveline spins when doing this you may have clutch pack problems but unlikely they would all be bad.
Forward clutch is common to all three forward gears and rev clutch is common to all three reverse gears.
The internal workings of the converter usually work or not work.
Let us know what you find
good luck
Dennis
 

[Bill in IL]

I took the machine out of a heated shop tonight. It was 70 degrees so this may not have been the best test for my situation cause like I said the warmer the machine is the better it works. I butted up to a slab of concrete and gave it full throttle in all forward gears. The input shaft to the transmission did not turn any without the wheels turning. This should rule out the transmission right?

It does make me question where does the transmission clutch pressure come from?

Do you have any more suggestions on where to go with this.
 

[Dennis K (WA)]

Morning Bill,
Sounds like your transmission is good as long as it reacts the same when cold.
The pressures come from a pump mount on or in the converter. It draws oil from the trans sump, sends it to a regulator and back to the transmission selector valve. Oil that the main pressure system does not need goes to the converter.
Problem is, it has been sooooo long ago that I can't remember the layout of the converter assemble for sure on the H60B. Hough used that transmission in a lot of different models but I don't think the converters were all the same on different models. There is going to be a main pressure regulator mounted some where and a converter regulator some where but I can't remember where. Your problem may be related to converter pressure when cold.
Could you post a picture of the back of the converter and a picture of the converter side of the transmission? This may jog my memory.
Otherwise, as another poster stated, mechanical failures of a converter generally don't come and go and problems are usually when hot not cold.
Dennis
 

[Bill in IL]

Thanks for your time. Your just the man I have been looking for... someone with previous experience on these machines.

I will attmept to take some pics and post this evening. Its pretty crowded in there with hoses so hopefully you will be able to see what you need. I know there is a regulator right on the back of the converter charging pump but will have to look in the book for what its exact purpose is.

Thanks.
 

[Bill in IL]

Did some more checking tonight. I found the converter pressure regulator. I pulled it out and found nothing out of the ordinary. It was clean and both springs were intact.

I took some pictures of the torque converter. Lots of stuff in the way but the torque converter regulator is right above the temp gauge for the converter on the left side of the machine. The charging pump is right below the transmission regulator. The oil for it comes out of the transmission to the charging pump to the filter then to the transmission regulator.


 

[Dennis K (WA)]

Morning Bill,
The pictures turned out fine but for right now I am at a lose, it just doesn't make sense.
I'm thinking your machine just wants to sleep in a nice warm bed.

Internal components of the converter are probably aluminum and if they fail do to a bearing or something your oil should have a silver color to it.
I can't think of anything in the torque that would be temperature sensitive as you describe it. Sorry

Thinking out of the box a bit here. Does the engine sound the same when cold or hot? Do you have a hydraulic load for some reason when cold robbing your power. Can't think of one myself.
Does the clutch pressure jump right up when started cold or is it slow to build? Ever any over heating problems with the conv/trans system?
Sorry I'm not more help but running out of ideas.

If you come up with anymore clues let us know, I'm interested in helping if I can.
Dennis