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Sub Panel Question


 
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chvet73
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Joined: 03 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

After reading mutiple posts on this subject I have some questions.
I am installing a 60 amp sub panel. This panel is adjacent to the main panel. In the same building not remote.
Here are the qusetions:
1. Should it be connected with metal or plastic conduit?
2. If connected with metal do you need a ground wire?
3. What gauge wire? This is only at most 2 feet of wire.
4. Does it need to have the neutral bonded?
5. Run 3 or 4 wires? That is to say does it need the ground wire?
6. Had an electrician here today and he said " run 3 wires and bond the neutral. Is he correct?

Thanks for everyones help in advance.
 
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Bus Driver
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote


1. Should it be connected with metal or plastic conduit?
Not necessary in most jurisdictions. SER cable is one type cable that can be used.
2. If connected with metal do you need a ground wire?
Either that or grounding bushings on the conduit.
3. What gauge wire? This is only at most 2 feet of wire.
Not smaller than #6.
4. Does it need to have the neutral bonded?
Absolutely not-- if you understand the meaning of bonding.
5. Run 3 or 4 wires? That is to say does it need the ground wire?
The SER takes care of that.
6. Had an electrician here today and he said " run 3 wires and bond the neutral. Is he correct?
NO!
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Myself, a long retired electrical power distribution design engineer (BSEE Purdue University, 1969/70) and my good sparky buddies Bus Driver, Mark and Buick n Deere n several other fine electricians and engineers n technicians HAVE BEAT THIS TO DEATH ON HERE BUT LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE FAILED TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT, BUT HEY I WILL TRY AGAIN........

If you wire up a "Sub Panel" fed from the "Main Distribution Panel" for 120/240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire Service..........

YOU RUN 4 WIRES (2 Hots L1 & L2, 1 Neutral a
GrounDED Conductor, 1
Equipment Ground, a GroundING
Conductor)

At the Sub Panel DO NOTTTTTTTT
bond the Neutral Buss to the
Equipment Ground Buss, keep
them seperate and isolated

While metallic conductive Conduit with proper jumpers and connections etc. can in some cases be used for the equipment GroundING Conductor I WOULD RUN AN INSULATED GROUNDING CONCUCTOR IN THE CONDUIT AND NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT RELY ON THE CONDUIT ITSELF No wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Sooooo the electrician who said run only 3 wires and RE bond Neutral and Ground at the sub panel I assume,,,,,,,IS IN MY OPINION WRONG AS RAIN PROVIDED!!!!!!!!! he is relying upon the latest NEC cuz yearssssssss ago things were done differently.........

NOTE..... I suggest you go with what LOCAL AUTHORITY HAS TO SAY versus myself or anyoneeeeeeee here, cuz if there is a local binding governing authority ?????????? its what they say and will approve that matters nottttttttt anyone here, regardless if we are right or wrong or the latest NEC or older NEC or for that matter ANY NEC has been adpopted in your juriusdiction, its ONLY one particular set of standards that may or may not have been adopted or may or may not have any authority where you live!!!!!!

That being said, as an engineer I could give you the engineering and safety reasons WHY you should run 4 wires, but that takes a lot of time to explain, and it may only confuse a non electrical person, no need to re invent the wheel all over again on here lol

Best wishes n God Bless,,,,,,Check with Local Authority and true competent professionals and experts before making a decision, cuz its you and your familys lives at risk, not ours..

John T in Indiana, BSEE, JD
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Metal conduit is not a ground conductor . Code has mandated for good reason that a dedicated ground conductor be installed.
In all honesty probably installing a larger panel would be preferable to adding a sub panel.
 
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chvet73
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks guys you confirmed everything I thought was correct. I knew that 'electrician' did not know what he was talking about.
Now I can proceed ahead safely.
 
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Plane Bart
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Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 659
Location: Stafford VA

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If the panel will be located right next to the main panel you can use a 1 1/4" off set nipple as long as the cover of both panel will open you will be fine.
You can use PVC electrical conduit also for more space if needed.
Get the Plastic bushing to protect the wires.
# 6 THHN is required for 60 amps
You can use all #6 and phase tape them or buy #8 Green THHN for yor ground
Line 1 black
Line 2 red
Neutral white
Ground green continuos green insulation or phase taped green on end to the other.
Do not bond ground and neutral in the sub panel
You must have all grounds and neutrals separated on steppe rated ground bar neutrals will be isolated from ground and go on the neutral bar ground bar will be purchased sepperlaty
And gets mounted to the panel enclosure
All 240 volt circuit comming from the sub panel will need to have two hots a ground bare copper a separate insulated neutral conductor
Bart Master electrician
 
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Plane Bart
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Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 659
Location: Stafford VA

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Sub Panel Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If the panel will be located right next to the main panel you can use a 1 1/4" off set nipple as long as the cover of both panel will open you will be fine.
You can use PVC electrical conduit also for more space if needed.
Get the Plastic bushing to protect the wires.
# 6 THHN is required for 60 amps
You can use all #6 and phase tape them or buy #8 Green THHN for yor ground
Line 1 black
Line 2 red
Neutral white
Ground green continuos green insulation or phase taped green on end to the other.
Do not bond ground and neutral in the sub panel
You must have all grounds and neutrals separated on steppe rated ground bar neutrals will be isolated from ground and go on the neutral bar ground bar will be purchased sepperlaty
And gets mounted to the panel enclosure
All 240 volt circuit comming from the sub panel will need to have two hots a ground bare copper a separate insulated neutral conductor
Bart Master electrician
 
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