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M Hydraulics

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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:52 am    Post subject: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a nice M that was my Dads. We are headed out today to pick up a loader off another M that has a tilt bucket. Hydraulic recommendations is my question. Should I spring for live hydraulics or has anyone had good success with a PTO pump. Appears to me either way I will need a supplemental tank. Would appreciate some recommendations/lessons learned. Thanks
 
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DeltaRed
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Kinda depends on the loader.For an older trip bucket/oneway lift cylinder-occational lightduty use,the tractor hydralics(belly pump) will be fine.If you're going for a larger HD loader(such as a F-11 Farmhand)with lots of heavy use,you will very definitly need a pto pump,something with 15-20 gpm..
 
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Wardner
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Fill the rear frame with Hy-Tran and use it for the reservoir. Get a filter for the intake. This is how 460-560 are set up. A separate reservoir may be cheaper than the oil and filter, however. Reservoirs are available from the Surplus Center in Lincoln, NE
 
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Greg K
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I second that it depends on the loader. Usually the Farmhands and Dual loaders had the reservoir built in in the upright of the loader frames. I have a large Prince PTO pump on my M that has worked very well for me. When it was new it would kill the motor if I dead-ended the cylinders.
 
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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well you folks seem pleased with PTO pumps and no recommendations for live hydraulics. I was thinking of live hydraulics cause I have the front plate that will accommodate it and they seem a neat install. (1) Fill the rear frame with Hy-Tran and use it for reservoir....not sure what or where you mean there. Rear frame of the tractor?????? (2) Picked the loader up yesterday, it is a Wilson and has been retrofitted with a cylinder to tilt the bucket. Rear frame has me a little confused
 
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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That is the same pump I was looking for, I was thinking the small Prince pump
 
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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I will call the prince dealer and talk to them, was not thinking of a 15-20 GPM if that what it takes then so be it. I do know the live hydraulics on my 300 run the loader there ok, but slow on the log splitter
 
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mkirsch
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Live hydraulics are big $$$. $900 for the live pump alone.

You don't want used. Used pumps were taken off for a reason, and these pumps can't be rebuilt. You're taking a real risk paying 1/2 new for a used pump and then finding out it's no good. Then you do it again, and you may as well got the new pump in the first place.

The PTO pump's only disadvantage is it's not "live" and will stop when you push the clutch pedal. If the pump came with the loader or you already have it, it's $900 you don't have to spend.
 
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mkirsch
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Wardner is suggesting that you fill the differential housing and transmission with HyTran, and use it as a reservoir.

It's kind of a radical idea. These old tractors use heavy gear lube in the transmission and there are a lot of people who believe that if you don't use the "exact right oil" for something, that it will turn into dust and blow away in the wind.

Hytran will work fine in the M's transmission, but it will be noisier when you drive. The heavy gear lube does serve to deaden the gear noise some.

You definitely want to get the transmission and differential housings CLEAN AS A WHISTLE to start with, and put the biggest hydraulic filter you can find on the suction, if you go this route.
 
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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks, I appreciate your candid comments, I need
straight talk. Well, I can build a tank relatively
easy but I see the Surplus place in NE has them for
$100.00. I am not sure of the tank or PTO size I
need. I see they vary in GPM and I assume that means
the more GPM the faster the log split or whatever
will run. I am still thinking about a 3 pt hoe and
most of them come with a pump. I installed a Saginaw
3 pt on the M months ago. Appreciate the inputs,
helps a ton.
 
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IH fan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sparky2 wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:33:25 11/10/12) Thanks, I appreciate your candid comments, I need
straight talk. Well, I can build a tank relatively
easy but I see the Surplus place in NE has them for
$100.00. I am not sure of the tank or PTO size I
need. I see they vary in GPM and I assume that means
the more GPM the faster the log split or whatever
will run. I am still thinking about a 3 pt hoe and
most of them come with a pump. I installed a Saginaw
3 pt on the M months ago. Appreciate the inputs,
helps a ton.


Remember when you are looking at pumps, they are rated at a particular RPM, so you need to take that into consideration. Most pumps are rated at 1800 or 2000 rpm so with an M running a slower speed and driving off the crankshaft, you won't have the rated flow. I have a 240U with a crank driven pump and I am a firm believer in live hydraulics. If you've used them on your 300, you will miss it if you don't go that direction.
Not sure you will need tospend $900 if you already have the mount for a crank driven pump. Northern Hydraulics has them for less unless you get really extravagent. You need one with a keyed shaft and not a spline so you can lock it up solid with the coupler.
 


Last edited by IH fan on Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks, yes I like the live hydraulics on the 300.
I called Northern Tool. They do not have a pump
listing by application....i.e. 1951 Farmall M. They
told me to call back with bolt pattern, GPM flow,
open or closed and something else I cannot remember.
Do you know how I can obtain this type
info,,,,thanks again and standing by
 
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IH fan
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Location: Kansas

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sparky2 wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:26:50 11/10/12) Thanks, yes I like the live hydraulics on the 300.
I called Northern Tool. They do not have a pump
listing by application....i.e. 1951 Farmall M. They
told me to call back with bolt pattern, GPM flow,
open or closed and something else I cannot remember.
Do you know how I can obtain this type
info,,,,thanks again and standing by


You will probably want a pump in the 1.8 to 2.2 cubic inch per revolution to get the flow you need (2.0x 1500 / 231 = 13 gpm), assuming your M turns about 15-1600 rpm.... but I don't know for sure what an M is at full throttle. Using a loader, you will no doubt operate at less throttle much of the time, so going toward the bigger size will help. I am assuming your loader has it's own valves? If it does, it is most likely to be open center, meaning the flow will just by-pass with no load on the pump when the valves are centered.
As for the bolt pattern, you will need to measure that on the front pump mount you mentioned you have. I have the common dimensions somewhere in my information, but it's been so long I have no idea where it is. In Cessna/Eaton pumps (where I worked for 38 years) a larger B series or smaller L series will fit the bill, but I forget the mounting size... been retired 10 years the end of this month and really didn't deal with that part of the job for about another 12 years, so 22 years, I've slept a lot since then.
 


Last edited by IH fan on Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sparky2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well thank you very much. I assume I need to dismantle the distributor from the front engine mount and measure that bolt pattern and the pump will fit inbetween..sound correct? I'll see what happens when I call them Monday
 
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IH fan
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Location: Kansas

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: M Hydraulics Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sparky2 wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:37:43 11/10/12) Well thank you very much. I assume I need to dismantle the distributor from the front engine mount and measure that bolt pattern and the pump will fit inbetween..sound correct? I'll see what happens when I call them Monday

I mis-understood when you said you "have the front plate" to mount a pump. I thought you meant a mounting plate to drive off the front of the crankshaft, not off the timing gear... this is what I have on my 240U, an added mounting in front of the grill.
To drive off the timeing gear, you will need a pump from a late SM or newer model, 400, 450, etc. I don't know if Northern has such a thing, I doubt it, but they might. Then you will need the gears off a newer model because what is on an M is not strong enough to stand up to the added load. Someone else can probably help you more here than i can as to part #s, etc.
I believe Wardner has belt driven off the crankshaft on some of his "concoccsions"... maybe he can post anothe rpictureof his set-ups.
 


Last edited by IH fan on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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