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I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl

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28Hank
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:54 am    Post subject: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hello all,

Please go easy on me, I'm a newbie an not such a good mechanic. I have an 8N (388141 which I believe makes it 1951) that has been sitting under an awning, waiting for me to get my ducks in a row. That time has now come. Right now there is nothing between the gas tank and the carb. No shut-off, no sediment bowl, no fuel line, no elbow at the carb. I dunno where it all went.
I hate the whole sediment bowl part of things. I have never had one that didn't leak. I have read lots of posts here, and I know if you hold your tongue right, you can fiddle with them and make them work.
Question 1: I am wondering if there are any alternatives out there that would work so that I don't have to use a sediment bowl. I see other tractors that have a simple fuel shut off valve, usually with a screen on top, that screws right into the tank outlet. Are those available for the 8N tractors?
Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is no, can someone tell me which supplier I can get the good sediment bowl assembly from? I live a long way from anywhere, including any tractor supply house, so my ordering is going to be done on-line. I know that there are cheap sediment bowl assemblies and there are better quality ones. I'm not good enough to make the cheap ones work right, and need to spend some precious beer money on the better quality one. I just don't know how to tell the difference.
Question 3: Would I be better off making a new fuel line, or just buying one?

Thank you very much in advance for your replies.
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

" Question 1: I am wondering if there are any alternatives out there that would work so that I don't have to use a sediment bowl."

Think about this for a minute.....that sediment bowl assembly has been around since 1939 and you want to replace it w/ some jury-rigged system because you can't get yours to stop leaking? Don't you think it would be cheaper & easier to just buy a good OEM style sediment bowl and learn how to install it correctly?

" Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is no, can someone tell me which supplier I can get the good sediment bowl assembly from? "

I can't speak to the quality of the sediment bowls here at YT simply because I have no first hand experience w/ them. But, I've got at least 3 from Just8N's & they are fine. I can also tell you that there is a lot of junk out there; check the pic of the ones I removed from some of my N's.

" Question 3: Would I be better off making a new fuel line, or just buying one?"

Unless you have a double flaring tool for steel, you'd be better off buying the line.


I'll guess that 95% of leaks in new sediment bowls are installation errors.

Start w/ the gasket.

You can get both the cork gasket & the screen from TSC; p/n 0237144. A cork gasket will work if you soak it first in gas, but I like rubber. Check out tip # 10 at the link below for the correct NAPA part number. However, the newer ones aren't as thick as the old ones and the price is now $4 each. Iíve got the new ones to work, but it takes a few tries. And, at $4 for a thinner gasket, Iím not planning on using the NAPA gaskets anymore.

Put the bowl back on & hand tighten the thumb screw. Turn the gas on & look at the bowl. If it starts to fill the bowl, turn the gas off & start over; it has a leak. You will know it's sealed when gas does not flow into the bowl w/ the engine off. It won't fill with the bowl securely on because the float has closed the needle valve in the carb and there is nowhere for the air in the bowl to escape. (assuming the carb bowl is full) When the engine is started the needle valve will open and the trapped air will escape through the carb vent. If you loosen the bowl, it will fill.....and leak.

Thread sealer will not help to eliminate fuel leaks at the sediment bowl because the threads do not seal the system. Rather the joint is sealed at the inverted flare junction formed by the cast valve and the fuel line.

The most common cause of leaks at the connection is over tightening causing deformation of the soft cast metal. The only cure for this problem is replacement of the valve and probably the fuel line as well.

Speaking of deforming the metal.....look at the carb elbow. Don't honk down on it; it's brass. First, use a flare wrench to remove the fitting. (as in the picture) Next, if you do not have another fitting to screw into the elbow (as in the picture) then use a crescent wrench on the top & bottom (NOT the sides) of the elbow to remove it. Otherwise, you will distort it & you will never get the fuel line fitting back into it.

The sediment bowl threads that go into the gas tank are NPT & require a thread sealer. I use RectorSeal.


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Roger in Iowa
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I used an o-ring instead of the cork gasket. Has worked for several years without leaking.
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've heard of that.

But the size is critical to success.

Do you recall what size (diameter & thickness) you are using?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Harely Davidson motorcyles used a gravity feed fuel setup prior to 2006 when fuel injection was first introduced.

HD setup uses a 1/4 turn shut off petcock valve with an integrated filter screen that protrudes up into the fuel tank.
The filter screen is cylindrical and fits up through the fitting in the bottom of the fuel tank.

These petcock valves are trouble free and very reliable. There is no glass material.

The HD style petcock shut off valve uses an 3/8" NPT male thread.

Aftermaket petcock valve with filter screen can be had at many motorcycle suppliers.

JP cycles in Anamosa Iowa is one of the best suppliers.

Looking in the JP catalog there are many selections for this style of shut off valve.
The least expensive is $15.
The output connection is a rubber hose barb fitting.

My tractor is totally torn down from the bell housing forward. Will be replacing the glass sediment bowl setup with an HD style shut off valve.

This will be an upgrade in design, but not authentic, however.

The HD engine displacement is 91 CID compared to N engine at 120CID.

Find no problem with flow rate capacity.
 
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jb9959
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

For Item 3, I went to my local auto supply parts store and bought a steel brake line assembly. They are available in different lengths. The steel line is easy to bend.
 
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Roger in Iowa
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sorry, too long ago to remember size. I took the valve with bowl to store to determine fit.
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

that setup is WAY easier than the later ones.

you have simple thread to seal.. it screws into the tank.. use thread pucky like gasoila..

past that.. use a good gas soaked cork or high density paper fiber gasket.

from there it's flair type line tot he carb elbow...

don't let this beat you.

it didn't beat dirt farmers in 1939.. and you should be smarter than them.. Wink you can use a computer!
 
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55deere70
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The only problem with using a motorsickle type shut off or any other type of petcock is that now your sediment bowl is the float bowl of your carburetor. I would rather catch the water and other crap before it gets to the carb, that's the whole idea of the sediment bowl.
 
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TL (Va)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree, Keep the glass bowl. At the end of my last tank of gas mine was half full of water. I have also seen what looked like tiny weed seeds. A lot easier to do a quick dump of the bowl than cleaning the carb.
 
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2tractors
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

All my tractors have a ball valve and a large clear inline filter with rubber hose. With the old system there are 3 filters and when it sputters your not going to know which one it is. Others will chime in and say what a fire hazard it is but as long as you keep it well away from exhaust it will be fine.
 
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mbramble
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I finally figured out that the major reason I was having so much problem getting the sediment bowl to not leak was that the sediment screen was stretched and no longer round. There is a lip that the screen sits in and because it was no longer round, part of the screen would fit up between the gasket and the surface the gasket is supposed to sit on. Found another screen (completely round) in a box of parts I have sitting in the shop and have had no problems since. I cut my gaskets from cork gasket stock I bought from Advance Auto Parts years ago and it works fine without soaking it in gas.
 
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old
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Over the years I have had way to many tractors and ALL have had the sediment bowl set up and all have worked just fine unless of course you buy the cheap China junk stuff. Ya they do need a little TLC once in a while and a new gasket O'Reilly's part #398 which I keep on hand. I have at least 15 tractors right now with sediment bowls and all and none cause me problems. Hard to beat what has been used for decades
 
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28Hank
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Wow! Thank you for the responses, particularly Bruce's detailed reply. You guys are awesome. Thank you.
 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate my fuel shut off / sediment bowl Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The engine will take care of the water condensation in the fuel tank.

This condensation condition is typical of all atmospheric fuel tanks

The water actually increases the HP.
 
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