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Removal of dozer from pond

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Jaybird46
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A freind of mine has a Allis Chamlers HD 21 dozer (50,000 lbs) down in a pond with water almost to turbo. What equipment would be required to remove it? Any reasonalbe ideas on how to do this without personal injury? He is going to pump the pond. I told him to remove the pond dam (with another dozer) so water can drain. How long does he have to drain the oils, replace them, and get it running before it is a large piece of scrap, assuming he can get it out?. Serious recommendations only needed-no jokes please. Any suggestions appreciated.
 
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NEKS
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Have heard of useing a double engine scraper and filling it with dirt first.
 
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BCnT
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

if its fresh water he should be good for awhile...if it took on water while running,youre looking at severe damage.
over head crane would prob be the easiest so dozer doesnt have to be drug out of muck.
 
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DerekND
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

IF it still is able to start and run, chain big timbers to the tracks and back over them.
 
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NCWayne
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ah, come on, we can't make any jokes, that sucks.....Seriously, the suction of the mud on the machine is what will likely kill any outright, easy, recovery attempt. I've never seen one stuck like that, but I Dad telling me about one he saw years ago. In that case a D8, had backed over a bank and just the rear part of the machine was stuck. In that instance they used two of the other D8's on the site to ever get it to move. On one of the attempts the pull cable broke and he watched it whip around and make a clean cut on about a 6 inch tree, dropping it to the ground. Ultimately he said there was a distinct, unmistakable sound of the suction of the mud releasing when it finally started moving.

Having a machine nearly completely buried like your describing, I'd hate to think what it would take to get it out. In other words if it took 2 machines to get another of the same size out, when just it's tail end was stuck, I can't imagine what it would take machine wise to pull out one completely buried like that. Even if the mud only doubled the percieved weight of the machine, and if you've ever pulled your foot out of the mud you know it will do that, and more, your looking at needing to be able to pull in the range of well over 100,000 lbs. That being the case, I'd think something like 3 or 4 D9 sized machines, and maybe more would be needed to get the thing unstuck.

That said if I had to make a recommendation to someone in that situation it would start with doing exactly what your talking about, and draining the pond. Once drained get an excavator to dig out from around the machine. Doing this will reduce or eleminate the suction from the mud and make getting the machine out alot easier. Even then I'd recommend at least two D8 sized machines to insure you've got enough pulling power.

Once out drain EVERYTHING. As far as how long is too long, there's no real time frame becuase in reality the second it went under it had been under longer than it should have been. That said I have seen pictures of military vehicles under water for 40 plus years being drug out and gotten running without 'alot' of work. At the same time I personally know of an old IH loader that was sunk in a creek, and flooded over the weekend. In that case the oil in the transmission were displaced as the level in the creek rose, and replaced with water and silt. The owner started it and tried using it to assist the machine pulling it out. While no engine damage occured, every clutch in the transmission was wasted. If you had seen the amount of sludge, grit, etc, etc we got out of every part of that machine that we opened it up, from just a weekend under water, you probably wouldn't believe it. That being said, I won't even go into how to clean everything out because regardless of how clean you think you've got it there will always be something left unless you do a complete dissasembly and clean as you go.

Beyond that all I can say is good luck.
 
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Stuck bad
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Are there any tree's or something within range that you could anchor to? A winch truck, perhaps a big tow truck, could get it out if there was something to anchor the truck to. A know a guy who got a 200 size excavator stuck in gumbo and it was pulled out with a winch truck and several snatch blocks. They figured there was over 50 tons of pull but the truck was anchored to a few large tree's. They hooked big chains to the track pads and were surprised the pads didn't break. They just slid it along on the tracks. I don't know if that would work in your case as a dozer has single grousers instead of street pads. A good size excavator (or 2) might get it out too. Hooking a big cable on the bucket teeth has a lot of pull force.
 
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Stuck bad
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Forgot to mention that if there is water in the pond, there may not be as much suction as if it were were just gumbo mud. I used to race a dirt bike and also worked with equipment in wet conditions. Going through a water filled hole is not nearly as sticky and slimy as going through a similar hole after the water has been pumped out and/or dried up a bit. It seems like the water in the hole keeps the bottom firm but once the water is gone and air gets at the hole, it turns to a sticky slimy mess.
 
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Dr. Walt
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with NCWayne about using a large excavator to clear the mud away from the dozer once the pond is drained, but make certain that the excavator stays on FIRM GROUND or you will have TWO stuck machines. If it's a Large pond, you may have to set up a Drag-Line to remove the mud instead of an excavator.

The only experience I've had with a buried dozer was back in 1978 when I worked for a Gold & Silver Mining operation in Nevada. We had heap-leach pads 100 feet wide by 400 feet long by 15 feet high that had been soaking in Sodium Cyanide solution for over 1 month, when our supposedly competent dozer operator decided that he was going to take our large Komatsu dozer (D9 size) and "turn over the pad". He walked the Komatsu up the side of the pad on boulders, but as soon as he got off the boulders he buried the dozer to the point where only the top 1 1/2 feet of the exhaust stack were showing. We now had a large dozer completely buried in VERY CAUSTIC & EXTREMELY DEADLY mud, (Sodium Cyanide has to be mixed with Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda) to keep it highly Alkaline. - Cyanide with ANY type of acid creates CYANIDE GAS, - INSTANT DEATH).

To remove the Komatsu we used two 980 wheel-loaders to dig it out. Next we used all of our heaviest chains & cables hooked to two huge 50 Cubic Yard capacity Haulpak haulage trucks. The chains & cables promptly SNAPPED. We ended up having to get Anchor Chain for a large ship, in order to pull out our Komatsu. Once we got it out, we spent the next two days washing off the mud with fire hoses. Meanwhile, company management had put it up FOR SALE - CHEAP!

A friend of mine bought the Komatsu when I told him about it being for sale after what had happened to it. He hauled it home & proceeded to thoroughly flush out the engine, trans, finals, EVERYTHING. I saw the Komatsu several years later & it was running & operating just like a new machine and to the best of my knowledge it is still going strong.
 
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oliver90owner
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Any army tank recovery units nearby? Might be a bit of practice for them?
 
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dcz3
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

How about 2 big wreckers like the size used to recover tractor trailer units
 
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CCer
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you are in an area where freezing is possible. Drain everything/open everything as soon as it"s out of the water.You don"t need any broken/cracked housings added to your job.
 
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Jay Oakes
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Good Morrning-Jokes are fine for the pond dozer. There may be two big tow trucks to help, Cat 322 Excavator, and another D7 or so sized dozer. Rain in the forecast is hindering retrieveval (locasted in S.E. Iowa near Ottumwa).
I think there is hope, but its going to be a challenge and hopefully no injurys occur.
He needs a good dose of UPSADAISY-EM.
 
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chevytaHOE5674
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Did it inhale water while running? If not then there shouldn't be too much damage.

If the machine is somewhat level and you get the pond drained, I would attempt to drain/change all the fluids where it sits. Then try to fire it up and drive it out. At the very least if its running it will be much easier for another machine to pull it out with its tracks turning.


Of course if it took in water while running then don't think of starting it up.
 


Last edited by chevytaHOE5674 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pops1532
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

How about some pictures so we can get an idea of what he has to work with?
I wouldn't drain the pond.
Like someone said...use cables and several snatch blocks. The more times you run the cable through blocks at the anchor point and blocks on the machine, the easier the pull will be. You'll need something to anchor the snatch blocks to.
If you use the right rigging it won't be too bad. See if you can find a video or pics of how the Army pulls out stuck tanks.
 
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D7fever
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Removal of dozer from pond Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You will need 2 dozers bigger than the stuck one, and some really heavy cable, ( 2.25 inch choker is good for 35 tons), I would use at least 2 cables of this size, check cable ratings. You might need equipment to just handle the weight of the cable. Like the other fellow said they broke one. If you break one and it hits someone it would be better to leave the dozer in the pond. I know that for moving one on dry land usually you need one the same size to move it. <
Good luck
 
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