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Electronic Ignition starting problem

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HeyObie
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

This is my first post so I hope I don"t screw up.

But here is my situation. I recently bought a 49 8N because my 50 8N developed an engine problem and I had to keep running. So I have basic 8N knowledge

What I didn"t know when I bought the 49 was that it was converted to an Electronic Ignition system (this is a 6 volt system).

Now I did a little reading on the boards and I understand that I have the bad combination for EI systems. That is 6volt side mount.

With that said, I"d like to make it work if I can. So here is my problem.

It seems to usually starts right up but not always. But what is really unacceptable is that if I turn it off, it won"t start back up. It is like no spark but not sure. On another board, I was told that this is a sign of a bad coil. So I have one on the way.

My concern is that I an afraid that I will just fry the coil because the coil does not connect to the ballast resistor. The coil is grounded to the engine. There is a wire that runs from the electronic ignition to the same negative terminal as the ignition switch.

So I don"t know what to do to make this 49 start consistently. I don"t want the expense and effort of going 12 volt.

So if no one has a fix for me, I may just go back to points and condenser which will be another adventure because I don"t know what was yanked out of the distributor. I would prefer to make this work as it is if I can

Thanks,

Obie
 
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Dell (WA)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Obie........electronic ignitions do NOT like 6-volts. Why, 'cuz the solid state electronics quit working at about 5.7-volts. Just starting drags the 6-volt battery down to about 4.5-volts. Ittza LAW, lead-acid law. You can NOT do anything about the LAW.

Unfortunately, the squarecan coil needs the "infamous ballast resistor" ...or... the internal insulative tar melts and shorts out the sparkies. Howsomevers it takes about 1-hr fer the tar to melt. NOT yer problem.

Didja know that you can replace yer points (0.015") every year for 10-yrs for cost of poorly performing electronic ignition?

Ittza 2-bolt, 15-min job to remove the weird 4-nipple frontmount and replace the points (0.015") on the kitchen table. Just un-snapple yer capple and letter dangle. Installation is a reversal of the removal ...except... gently start yer 2-bolts and putt'chur rotor ON. Now rotate yer rotor until the OFF-SET drive tang fits into the OFF-SET camshaft drive slot. Now tighten yer 2-bolts and re-snapple yer capple. Simple, eh?

Remember to "polish" the INVISIBLE CORROSION from between the points. (0.015") Me? I use a clean $1-bill clamped between the points and pull. Iff'n yer really cheap, tear a strip from HEAVY brown paper grocery sack and use that. ........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
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NOXJohn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I am a fan of EI but only when the tractor has been converted to 12 volts. If your tractor is actually a 1949 it is a front mount not a side mount as you indicated. Regardless you best solution is to purchase a new breaker plate assembly and convert the tractor back to points. Both this site and just 8n's sell the plate assembly for $30-40. I would call and ask the manufacturer of the points prior to purchase. If they are made by TISCO I would buy some place different. TISCO points are junk.
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

HeyObie wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:51:04 11/13/12) This is my first post so I hope I don"t screw up.

But here is my situation. I recently bought a 49 8N because my 50 8N developed an engine problem and I had to keep running. So I have basic 8N knowledge

What I didn"t know when I bought the 49 was that it was converted to an Electronic Ignition system (this is a 6 volt system).

Now I did a little reading on the boards and I understand that I have the bad combination for EI systems. That is 6volt side mount.

With that said, I"d like to make it work if I can. So here is my problem.

It seems to usually starts right up but not always. But what is really unacceptable is that if I turn it off, it won"t start back up. It is like no spark but not sure. On another board, I was told that this is a sign of a bad coil. So I have one on the way.

My concern is that I an afraid that I will just fry the coil because the coil does not connect to the ballast resistor. The coil is grounded to the engine. There is a wire that runs from the electronic ignition to the same negative terminal as the ignition switch.

So I don"t know what to do to make this 49 start consistently. I don"t want the expense and effort of going 12 volt.

So if no one has a fix for me, I may just go back to points and condenser which will be another adventure because I don"t know what was yanked out of the distributor. I would prefer to make this work as it is if I can

Thanks,

Obie


Keep the EI for-go the those troublesome issues with points... Your 6V EI wiil work just fine... Points and EI suffer from the same electrical issues you coil probably needs to go thru a resistor. Its EZ to try run the wire from the top of the coil thru the OEM resistor and from the resistor to ground ...

BUTTTTTTTTTT before you go fudgen with it just in-case it was not like the one I have worked on post ex-zackly how its wired... JMOR is the resident EI expert I am sure he will help you get it wired correctly...
 
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HeyObie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Here is how it is wired as I mentioned in the
original post. I can not use the ballast resistor
because my EI is grounded to the tractor (this is
the opposite polarity - positive ground vs the
ballast resistor which is Negative) The coil does not connect to the ballast resistor. The coil is grounded to the
engine. There is a wire that runs from the
electronic ignition to the same negative terminal
as the ignition switch.
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

HeyObie wrote:
(quoted from post at 17:57:38 11/13/12) Here is how it is wired as I mentioned in the
original post. I can not use the ballast resistor
because my EI is grounded to the tractor (this is
the opposite polarity - positive ground vs the
ballast resistor which is Negative) The coil does not connect to the ballast resistor. The coil is grounded to the
engine. There is a wire that runs from the
electronic ignition to the same negative terminal
as the ignition switch.


The wire from the top post of the coil runs from the post to the chassis ground (engine),,,, if so run the wire from the top post of the coil to the Original ballast then from ballast to chassis ground...

You do not want any resistance in the circuit from the switch to the EI unit Wink
 
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HeyObie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Correction - I said side mount in the above post, this is a FRONT mount 49 8N
 
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HeyObie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hobo,

Let me get this straight. If I am standing at the
FRONT of the 8N looking at the ballast, you are
saying, run a wire from the top of the coil to the
LEFT post of the ballast. On that same LEFT post,
run a wire to GROUND.

Obie
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

HeyObie wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:05:20 11/13/12) Hobo,

Let me get this straight. If I am standing at the
FRONT of the 8N looking at the ballast, you are
saying, run a wire from the top of the coil to the
LEFT post of the ballast. On that same LEFT post,
run a wire to GROUND.

Obie
No, that isn't what he said. To re-work your statement, he said,
"If I am standing at the
FRONT of the 8N looking at the ballast, you are
saying, run a wire from the top of the coil to the
LEFT post of the ballast. On the RIGHT post,
run a wire to GROUND".
NOW, let me add MORE. At this point, you have not even established that the EI/coil/spark is your problem, sooooo, the FIRST order of business is to determine whether of not you have a spark at that moment when the tractor won't start. Pull a plug wire, hold it near grounded metal parts & look to see if a quality spark is present or not. Go from there.

IF you do determine that under 'no start' conditions that you do not have a spark, I suggest that you measure the coil primary resistance. Coils vary (maybe 0.5 to 2.5 Ohms) and Pertronix recommends that combined coil + any ballast resistance add up to a total of 1.5 Ohms for your 6v system. That may mean that a resistor is needed and it may mean that no resistor is needed......it depends on that primary resistance number.
 


Last edited by JMOR on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

HeyObie wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:05:20 11/13/12) Hobo,

Let me get this straight. If I am standing at the
FRONT of the 8N looking at the ballast, you are
saying, run a wire from the top of the coil to the
LEFT post of the ballast. On that same LEFT post,
run a wire to GROUND.

Obie


Ground the other side of the ballast to complete the circuit... The circuit flows thru the ballast to ground....

This will reduce the amps to around 4/5 amps,,, with out a ballast you are in the 8 amp range...
 
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HeyObie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Electronics is not my strength. I have a meter but I do not know where to put the probes to check the resistance. I assume the engine and ignition is off.
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

HeyObie wrote:
(quoted from post at 03:36:27 11/14/12) Electronics is not my strength. I have a meter but I do not know where to put the probes to check the resistance. I assume the engine and ignition is off.


If you add the resistor and its starts and runs good don't worry about checking it with a meter ....

Maybe Bruce will come along and fill you in on zackly how to check it iffin you wannna go their,,, the check is very similar to a points set up

Points and EI suffer from the same electrical issues...
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The original is being used as a junction at this time,,, Find another way to tie those wires together... Then use the original as has been stated... If it has a aftermarket amp meter (not the original loop style) you can move the junction to one of those studs...
 
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HeyObie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition starting problem Reply to specific post Reply with quote

How do you test the resistor ballast? I'd like to make sure it works before I hook up a new coil
 
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