14t Baler - dealer/knotter issue

[DaninKansas]

Bought an old 14t (like there are any that are new) last summer. The old guy I bought it from was a neighbor and he used it on his property. It failed to knot on the right side ("inside knotter)on one in twenty bales. I replaced several parts myself but didn't trust myself to work on the knotters.

I brought it to the local dealership to have them diagnose the knotter issue. After looking at it the "mechanic" said I should replace all the chains, the duck bills on the knotters and retime it. I had them do the work.

I think I am paying for them (or at least this "mechanic") to learn how to work on square balers. He seemed to have lots of trouble timing it and finally figured out that one of the roll pins had broke on a gear on the knotter. They replaced the gear and the shaft, timed it again (sounded like they tried to time it 4 or 5 times). I bring it home thinking I probably have a lot of money in it but at least it will work when I go to use it this spring. I had the hay laying in my shed that I pulled out of it before sending it to the shop that needed baled up again. It failed to tie a single one of these bales. The inside knotter had twine wrapped around the duckbill making a ball of knots.

I noticed that the one bale in the chute that was tied (while at the dealership) had the knots at different places on the bale - one about three inches from the end of the bale and one about 8 inches from the end of the bale. It wasn't doing this when it went in. The dealership had pointed it out and said it was the result of the tucker fingers being worn....

Any ideas? Could one of the shaft be 180 degrees off due to the gear being put back on wrong?
 

[9598Farmallred]

[qudote="DaninKansas"](reply to post at 22:16:19 12/01/12) [/quote] Dan, check your wiper arm adjustment it should rub firmly against billhook to clean twine from billhook, also check twine knife it should be quite sharp to cleanly cut twine during knotting cycle, if these adjustments are not close the knots can hang up on billhook making a ball of twine on billhook, possably pulling one knot to be behind the other . also I would recomend picking up an owners manual they have a very good troubleshooting section in them. good luck, Andrew
 

[Idaho spud]

The big problem with the 14T. They wasn't much of a baler when they were brand new. Look at the twine pressure coming out of the twine box. It could be too loose if it wadding up on the bill hooks. Not saying that's the problem but a place to start looking. Too much twine pressure usually cause twine stripping.
 

[retired farmer]

The first thing you should do right now is call the dealer and have them come out and show them what it is doing and tell them to either fix it or give you your money back. Get a manual if they still make them and read thru it several times and then follow the adjustments. Check for any parts that look worn. Good luck.
 

[Tx Jim]

I agree with Retired Farmer. There's no reason for the 2 knots not to be at the same distance from the end of the bail unless maybe the wiper arm didn't push knot off of the billhook. After all there is only one needle lift shaft that powers both billhooks and twine discs at the same time. If baler is only miss tying a small percentage of ties then it usually requires ""adjustments not parts replaced"".
 

[Kent Petersen]

i deagree spud they bale after bale and not miss a tie but you need to read the book and set the knoters up right they must have been good baler there were at very large numbers sold
 

[bigboreG]

First baler I owned was a 14t. Mine too had problems on one side. I took it to JD dealer, they said they could fix. Well they didnt. It was worse. I did get labor back, though. On the other hand, the dealership I work for has a guy who has been there since the early seventies, and he is great with those balers. And he continues to go to school for the new stuff as well. Hard to believe, but its the first job he ever had, and he says it will be the last too! DEDICATED. Getting back to the baler, I sold it and bought a new holand 69 hayliner. That was a darn good baler.
 

[55deere70]

We have a 14T use it every year, ties nice tight bales when everything is right. Sounds to me like a few things possibly could be wrong. Dull twine knife, knife arm not close enough to wipe the knot off the billhook, also not enough twine tension at the twine box can cause all sorts of weird things to happen. The way the twine is tensioned, I don't think you could really get too much tension. My suggestion to everybody with a tying problem is to turn it over by hand and watch it. You can usually see what is the problem, especially if it's only on one side.
 

[tim s]

Since the bale was most likely loose, the string and knot could have been slipped on the bale to miss alien it with the sister knot, it is virtually "impossible" for the knotter to do this on it's own. As for the young mechanic, he was in over his head from the start, it takes a special amount of insight to repair a knotter, and not many young guys have this or ever will.One of us old guys can make them look simple to fix, but are un-able to tell some one "how" to fix them, it's like a door opens up and we can see things that others can't, my door opened up for me when I was young,about 26, when I was at a Deere knotter clinic, they had a movie that showed the knot being made in slow motion, then showed in slow motion the things that happen when a knotter "misses",,it was like a revelation to me...
 

[4240 Turbo]

I agree 100% I had a 216 JD wire tie for years and me and my dad did all the work on those knotters, As well as some work for friends on a few other 14t balers. Now, my experience is the twine or wire tension coming from the box to the knotter is very important. Next thing is your twine guides, the porcelin ones, check these as well. Make sure none are missing, make sure that they don't have grooves worn deep into them, If there are any rollers lube them with penetrating oil and be sure that they turn freely, Another thing I have seen is the twine routed wrong, make sure this is right. double check, find a manual and a diagram if need be.
I have seen a lot of people try to time JD and hesston inline balers that had no business working on them at all. I am not a mechanic, but neither are those guys. I went to the dealer to ask the baler tech one day about setting up a hesston 4655 rail and roller clearance for the plunger. He had no idea what I was talking about so we went out in the yard and I shoed him on a new machine. He replied "Well We don't mess with those, there is no reason to, we just buy new rails and rollers and that restores your clearances, if they are that bad there is no adjustment to correct it."

I first thought about asking for all their worn out rails and rollers for myself, then thought better of that and said thanks and went home and set my plunger clearances with feeler gauges, took about 1/2 hour. Still runs today. Don't trust the mechanics all the time, They have their place but noone knows everything.
 

[tim s]

Yes a dull twine knife is one of the most over looked problems, if the knife is not near razor sharp it slows the actual cut down ever so slightly, and will "sinch" or draw the knot too tight on the bill hook making it harder for the wiper arm to wipe it clean, then it hangs on for a split second too long,as the bale gets it's next punch from the plunger ether breaking the string or weakening it to where it will break as it leaves the chute ..That slow motion movie showed that nicely. If anyone has ever seen that TV show about extremely slow motion cameras you can almost visualize this, It would be great if those guys would do a clip on knotters,,they would sell like hot cakes...
 

[Mark-Ia]

If you Google "John Deere 14T Knotter" there are several videos on YouTube.
 

[tim s]

I just watched some of those, they are good but still don't show the things that are needed to be seen,,,I wonder who and when made the knotter that we use today was?? It really is a fantastic invention...
 

[tim s]

I cam up with this but still not much.. In 1936, a man named Innes, of Davenport, Iowa, invented an automatic baler for hay.
 

[DaninKansas]

Thanks for all the replies.

It certinly isn't lack of tension on the twine - if anything I thought it had too much. It sounds like the "wipe" action and possibly the knife is the big issue here.

I haven't paid the dealership, the guy finished working on it Friday and left early to go deer hunting without figuring the bill.

I did agree with them that the chains needed replaced - lots of wear on them and in some cases there was so much slack you couldn't get proper tension. I didn't want to break a chain and cause it to lose time and destroy the baler.