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Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ?

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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:22 am    Post subject: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The "large block" inline six's that replaced the 619. There was a 10 something liter that was dropped and now a 12.5L.
Was/is there anything common between the engines or was the 12.5 series a clean sheet design?
Wondering because it seemed there may have been the same sleeves used in the 619 as the 10 something liter engine?
 
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JDBert
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The 10.1 was the liter designation of the 619- the 12.5 is a clean slate motor- electronically controlled.
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Kind of surprised that there was never a mechanical pump
equipped Tier I or II engine in the 10.5L or 12.5L ? The later
13.5L maybe was only an electronic engine?
 
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DEEREMEYER1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The 10.5 and 12.5 have been EUI (electronic unit injector) equipped from the get-go, and also have overhead camshafts. The blocks actually look a little similar to late 7.6. It's a pretty small block relative to the displacement, but obviously moving the camshaft to the cylinder head allows for more bore and especially stroke relative to the size of the block. Good engines all the way around. I did have to go through one awhile back that had water pump bearing balls go through the timing gears. Not good. Got it all back together and had an oil leak. When the balls went through it shoved the camshaft up hard enough to crack the front cam bearing bore. So, it got torn down completely and rebuilt with a reman cylinder head.
 
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tim s
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There is nothing good about a cam shaft driven water pump,,a bad idea from the start..
 
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Tx Jim
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Tim S wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:42:17 12/05/12) There is nothing good about a cam shaft driven water pump,,a bad idea from the start..


Come on Tim admit it that if alternator belts break water pump keeps on pumping water. Seriously I hate the camshaft driven water pump on my 4255. I've already found antifreeze in the crankcase once.
 
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Kent Petersen
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

no reltive at all other then green paint the 10.1 and 12.5 are totaly differant from the 619.look a lot like 60 series detroit
 
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FactoryFarmer
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Kent Petersen wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:53:28 12/05/12) no reltive at all other then green paint the 10.1 and 12.5 are totaly differant from the 619.look a lot like 60 series detroit



Thats because it kind of is to a point Laughing
 
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Eric Hartman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I had a conversation with a John Deere representative at the time the 9000 series four wheel drive tractors were introduced. As I recall, the 9100 had the 8.1 liter engine, the 9200 had the 10.5 liter engine, and the 9300 and 9400 both had the 12.5 liter engine. The 10.5 liter was discontinued not long after the introduction. In my conversation with the JD rep, he had indicated Detroit Diesel and JD Power formed some sort of a joint venture in diesel engine development, and after he said this, I recall reading that back in the early to mid 1980's. The 10.5 and 12.5 liter Deere engines came out that joint effort, and the 60 series Detroit also came out of that joint venture. If I remember correctly, the first two 60 series Detroits were 11.1 liter and 12.7 liter displacement engines. I managed to acquire a JD power brochure on the 10.5 and 12.5 liter engines, and also the brochures on the 60 series Detroits when they were introduced. It has been some time since I have looked at either one, but I would agree they look very similar, as they were jointly developed and engineered by John Deere and Detroit Diesel. This joint effort, or venture, was ultimately discontinued. Some of my reading indicates the two wanted to develop a basic engine design together that could utilize newly developing and common fuel management systems being worked on by Bosch. If you do an internet search, there is some interesting reading about these engines and some on the joint efforts. I remember talking with the first truck owner/operators who switched from Cat or Cummins powered trucks to the new 60 series Detroits and they indicated there was a definite edge in fuel mileage as compared to what they were accustomed to with their prior power plants.
 
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DEEREMEYER1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm not a big fan, but a lot of engines use them and have for a long time.
 
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DEEREMEYER1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've heard that story several times, and I don't know if it's true or not. A Caterpillar E-model looks a lot like the Deere and Detroit engines too when you get right down to it. Any 6-cylinder, 4-valve, OHC, EUI diesel is going to look pretty much like another since there's not much room for innovation there. I've even been told by a so-called "expert" that Detroit and Deere valve covers interchange, which is complete b.s.
 
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Eric Hartman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well, I do remember back in about 1983,1984, or 1985, an article mentioning the joint venture or joint effort of Deere and Detroit. Might have been in Farm Industry News or another farm publication.
 
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ihman73
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

When I went through the JD Ag Tech program 10 yrs. ago we were told of the problems the 619 had the 10.1 was as my instructor called it a "619 with a controlled head gasket leak" the metric designated slightly "improved" 619 if you will. The Detroit/Deere venture was basically supposed to be the 60 series 4wd tractors powered by 60 series Detroit engines. Our instructors told us the reason it never happened was Detroit couldn't get the oil consumption to an acceptable level so Deere used their 10.1 in the 85 an 8760 and a Cummins in the 8960 this continued in the 70 series. Deere then designed the 10.5 and 12.5 engines which then came out in the 9000 series 4wd's. The 10.5 was discontinued when the Emissions standards for off road engines came about since it would be cheaper to de-rate a 12.5 to replace the 10.5 and would only need to come up with emissions solutions for on engine instead of two. This is what we were told by a career Deere tech and service manager that was teaching in the program I was in.
 
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JDBert
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The 8560 and 8570 used the 7.6. Otherwise your right on the money.
 
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jturbo10
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Old 531/619 any relation to the new 12.5 ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There are pro"s and con"s for camshaft driven waterpumps and I"m sure JD engineers did a lot of analysis before approving the concept. I personally like the no-belt water pump, however, I subscribe you might want to consider using a time line replacement strategy. Like in airplanes, we replace certain line items based on time/cycles rather than when broke. If you wait until you actually hear the bearings squeak or see antifreeze in the oil it could be a costly engine overhaul. My JD 4450 water pump had a slight squeak when it was first started during hay season. I shut it down at the first sign of water loss in the radiator. I was very lucky as the bearing case was intact when I put it in the shop and replaced the water pump. Don"t know what is an appropriate hour to automatically replace a cam run water pump but maybe John Deere has some data on time-between-failure stats on their water pumps. Since water pumps are about $450 to replace many people will not replace before failure. Maybe something around 4000 hrs or 5-6 yrs which ever comes first is a starting argument point. JMHO
 
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