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12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit

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Wade C
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Got the 12v conversion for a 6v front distributor 8N for the YTMag store.
Aside from the belt being too short, and the directions not explaining if or when you do or dont need the second resistor - the install was easy.

When I emailed them about the belt and the resistor, I got told to use the resistor, and that I must have the bracket wrong. So used the resistor in the wiring as the instructions said, and the bracket was also as the instructions said. Replied about the belt, and no response... so just got a longer belt and put it together and all is fine.... except the cold starting... its fine when it was in the heated shop, but after being outside for overnight... just light hits when cranking but would never light up.

Decided to bypass the second resistor (leaving the OE resister in line), and fired right up. Ran it a minute or three, and then shut down, reconnected the second resistor and started it back up to run. Took some cranking to get going again, but did light and run.

So in my head, (understanding that the resistor is to limit current as it gets warmer) and with it being cold and not starting with the two resistors, and starting with just the one... I am left wondering about the overall setup and how to make it as reliable as when it was 6volt - slow but reliable....

The email I got when asking about the resistor stated that they could not tell me why I would need it or how it was designed to function, but that the "instructions called for the resistor". I dont expect everyone there to be a mechanic... but considering the time it took for that reply, and never hearing back on the belt, I wasnt to optimistic about starting there first... and there is such a wealth of knowledge here.

Despite the instructions clearly saying "IF the resistor is used" - wire it this way - if not, wire it that way - but having no explanation of why it would or wouldnt be used... I was a bit curious about the design of the "kit". Why would a new "12v coil" require two resistors? Why not just one that either replaces the old in the OE spot, or omit that resistor and just use the one? Just struck me as odd.

Now that it wont start cold, but will if the second resistor is bypassed, Im left thinking there must be a reason the instructions said "IF" when it came to wiring in the second resistor - and what that reasoning is.

I could easily wire in a bypass switch so if needed, it would bypass the second resistor while starting and then go back to the two in series once running, but this is my dads tractor, and he isnt all that mechanical, and if that second resistor being bypassed would kill the coil if forgotten (heck might just using intermittently?), I cant do that - and would rather keep it "normal" because its an hour and half drive there to go "fix it" for him.

So anyone know the scoop behind this YTMag kit, and the story with the resistor? Thoughts on the best way to get this squared away? Would like to fix it right before I take it back to him (had it here replacing a valve and a tune up).

Thanks in advance.
Wade
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There is no good reason for YT to put that second resistor in their 12v conversion kit, supplied with their 12v coil. You do not need it. Use only the original ballast resistor on the 3 terminal board.

IF their kit had not included the 12v coil, then and only then would you install the second ballast in series with the original for use with the original 6v coil operating on 12v.
 
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Kurt-NEPA
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm with JMOR on this. If you have a 12 Volt coil you only need the ballast resistor. The other resistor is a 12V to 6V step down resistor and is only needed if you use the original 6 volt coil.

I would pull out (or bypass) the step down resistor and see it that cures the cold start problems.

Post back with your results. If you still have problems we'll work with you to get it running right.
 
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Wade C
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Kurt-NEPA wrote:
(quoted from post at 18:30:41 01/10/13) I'm with JMOR on this. If you have a 12 Volt coil you only need the ballast resistor. The other resistor is a 12V to 6V step down resistor and is only needed if you use the original 6 volt coil.

I would pull out (or bypass) the step down resistor and see it that cures the cold start problems.

Post back with your results. If you still have problems we'll work with you to get it running right.



There are two resistors in the line, the OE one on the terminal block under the ammeter, and then in addition, the one that was sent with the kit. But no information in the kit as to if it should be used or not, and no info on the coil either. The website says its a 12v coil... so was a bit surprised there was a SECOND resistor they said to use in series... but their email said to use it. If I bypass the secondary resistor - leaving the OE in the line only, it started fine when cold - great actually - better than it did when 6v. But with it in as they say, its much worse than the 6v.

But just want to be sure Im not going to burn out the coil, not having any information on it other than "12 Volt coil" (from: http://www.ytmag.com/8NE10300ALTC_501.htm) and no mention of anything in the instructions about the resistor other than "IF used - wire this way" type mention.

My initial thought was to remove the second resistor (new one from the kit) which is what brought about the idea of by passing it when it wouldnt start cold. But concern for burning the coil out is what prompted me to post here. JMOR and you both are backing up my initial thoughts... that it shouldnt burn out the new coil.

Should have some good cold weather tomorrow, so leaving it out on the trailer (had it loaded to take back to dad today until it wouldnt start when I went to chain it down for the trip). Will be able to do a test in some good cold air in the morning. Only thing I cant test is how it handles hot weather Laughing and time will tell if the coil burns out I guess. But good to know my thinking wasnt too far off base.

If she starts well tomorrow like expected, Ill just make a pig tail (and make my all new and pretty re-wiring job look like a nice job with a hacked in splice Mad ) and haul it back to him for "testing" Twisted Evil

If anyone else wants to chime in with confirmation, or other details, Ill be checking back as well as letting you know all is well.

Thanks
Wade
 
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notjustair
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have several types of alternators around here and find the 10si easiest. I don't use a kit and it works like a charm with the original belt. The last alternator I bought (a few weeks ago) from O'Reilly was a rebuilt unit for just under $30. I did have to pay the $7 core charge. I did the whole thing for under $50.

There are lots of folks willing to post pics if you need them.
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote


WHUT HE SAID Cool

IF their kit had not included the 12v coil, then and only then would you install the second ballast in series with the original for use with the original 6v coil operating on 12v.

Kits Chuck Exclamation I don't see any reason why this issue can not be figgered out...

Short belt issue,,, I want the shortest belt I CAN PRY ON A FRONT MOUNT CONVERSION... A pix would help solve your issue... I am interested in the alt pulley Wink Wink....

Coil start issue... Whut he said...
 
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Wade C
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Already have the kit, its in, and I cant return it Im sure... I have done my own conversion on a 4000, and could do it myself if I wanted to spend all the time figuring out the bracket and spacing (like I did on the 4000 - and realized... not worth the time after it was over and done with - so went with the kit on this because it had brackets and seemed like a decent price considering)

So no point in pics and such to rebuild something that has already been bought, installed, and a belt bought to fit. But thanks for the offer

I was in the saving time mode, not the saving money mode, since it needed done.
 
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Wade C
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hobo,NC wrote:
(quoted from post at 22:30:48 01/10/13)
WHUT HE SAID Cool

IF their kit had not included the 12v coil, then and only then would you install the second ballast in series with the original for use with the original 6v coil operating on 12v.

Kits Chuck Exclamation I don't see any reason why this issue can not be figgered out...

Short belt issue,,, I want the shortest belt I CAN PRY ON A FRONT MOUNT CONVERSION... A pix would help solve your issue... I am interested in the alt pulley Wink Wink....

Coil start issue... Whut he said...


And there in lies the problem... instructions didnt say anything but "IF" - and why would something for a 6v coil come in a kit that came with a 12v coil?

(assuming the "kits Chuck" comment was aimed at someone else? Maybe someone in charge of the kit assembly?)

I like the 1" longer belt, fits, no prying, and clears the bottom of the dist just a bit more... but still have the original new belt as a spare. The pulley is the one from the kit, had to swap the orig pulley from the Alt, and put that one on. It was the one for the wider belt as compared to normal automotive belts


Will remove the second resistor and patch the wiring tomorrow and should be all well and good.

Thanks again for the info!
Wade
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I hope it came with the correct pulley,,, TISCO has the correct pulley in their kit,,, all the other kits I have seen send a universal (their word their is no such animal its a made up word for a to satisfy them) pulley...

http://ytforums.ytmag.com/viewtopic.php?t=162141&highlight=pulley
 
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Wade C
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ya know... Im starting to think the pulley is the one you mention in the other post... I was a bit surprised to hear the belt squeal once I got it started after the quite a bit of cranking and dinking to try and get it started til I had the resistor thought...

I tightened it twice, expecting the belt to relax just a little... but it was tight enough that it shouldnt have squalled at all, but at a heavy load on the Alternator... itll sqeal... So, looks to be another issue with this kit.

Starting to wish I had just made up the brackets myself and done it all with parts that I chose instead of doing it this way.

So whats the deal on this kit? The people that put it together just not know enough about it to get the right stuff and write instructions properly? Or do they just not care and only interested in the money they can get for the kit? Maybe something else? I know this whole thing has bittered me on getting parts from there again.

Thanks
Wade
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Wade C wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:11:21 01/11/13) Ya know... Im starting to think the pulley is the one you mention in the other post... I was a bit surprised to hear the belt squeal once I got it started after the quite a bit of cranking and dinking to try and get it started til I had the resistor thought...

I tightened it twice, expecting the belt to relax just a little... but it was tight enough that it shouldnt have squalled at all, but at a heavy load on the Alternator... itll sqeal... So, looks to be another issue with this kit.

Starting to wish I had just made up the brackets myself and done it all with parts that I chose instead of doing it this way.

So whats the deal on this kit? The people that put it together just not know enough about it to get the right stuff and write instructions properly? Or do they just not care and only interested in the money they can get for the kit? Maybe something else? I know this whole thing has bittered me on getting parts from there again.

Thanks
Wade
I have some of thre TISCO & Atlantic conversion kit instruction sheets & clearly they were written by UN-knowledgable &/or foreigners.............the gross errors & language shows it all. Pitiful.
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If its the wrong pulley it will come back to haunt ya... Parts warehouses know nuttin about whats correct and low bidder gets the contract... Theirs so many folks that just don't know what to expect so questions and returns don't come back to bite the supplier... I would send the garbage back and start from scratch even if it dose cost more to roll my own its worth it...
 
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Eriklane
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Doesn't it also relate to the amount of total resistance in the circuit? I have a coil that reads 1.6 ohms I believe and another that's .8. I believe, if I remember correctly, that's why I put 2 resistors in my system.

Also, a new battery makes a big diff. My old battery cranked slow in cold, and starting was marginal despite everything else being fine. New battery, fires right up. So what may seem like a bit of an old battery, but one that still cranks, really can be a big diff. I think it was 4+ yrs old when I got a new one.
 
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Wade C
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Pulled the resistor, and all is well. (actually left the resistor, and made a jumper wire so that should the 12v coil burn out, and only a 6v is available, my dad wont be dead in the water.)

As for the pulley, I think Ill just do what i did on the 4000 i converted, and make the OE pulley from the generator fit. Last time had to turn a bushing to space it properly but worked fine - the Alt will turn a touch slower, but not like we need to make 30 amps at idle on these... hoping to do the same on this one. Then the pulley situation is fixed without costing more, and since I already had to buy another belt anyway just to get the darn thing done Im pretty sure its long enough - hehehe prolly find out that the OE belt will fit again. I guess I know where I wont be going for parts anymore - if they dont care about things in the kits being right, understandable instructions, accurate customer support, and replying to questions with accurate info, then they must not want my business. Sign of the times I guess... all about the profits nothing about pride and quality.


Thanks again for the info... guess well see how well things last over time.

Wade
 
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Wade C
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: 12v conversion - now hard/no start when cold - ytmag kit Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hobo,NC wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:40:53 01/11/13) I hope it came with the correct pulley,,, TISCO has the correct pulley in their kit,,, all the other kits I have seen send a universal (their word their is no such animal its a made up word for a to satisfy them) pulley...

http://ytforums.ytmag.com/viewtopic.php?t=162141&highlight=pulley


Checked the pulley, and its good... about .060" of clearance between the bottom of the groove and bottom of the belt when tightened. So at least the pulley is good to go, and I must just not have it tight enough. But that can be dealt with.

After talking with dad, he said it used to start pretty reliably down to 0F a couple years ago... then it started being hard to start without a heater on it. So he had the carb rebuilt by a local guy - and that seemed to fix it... but I tried the other morning when it was about 5 out, and could just get a few hits, and it would never start. Went out yesterday when it was about 50 and no choke, throttle at its lowest setting, and fired up almost instantly...

Any thoughts on getting it to be a bit better at cold starting? I have gone through the carb adjustments like the book calls for, done it a couple ways mentioned on here that I found in searching... and no real change in how it will start cold. (took a few days of dinking to get the different methods tried and they all seemed to end up in the same place as far as screw positions)

Not the end of the world, but Id like to have it as good as it can be before I take it back to dad.

Thanks
Wade
 
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