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9n no spark


 
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Shimano
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a 1940 9n with front distributor. drove it into the garage to work on. It had never had a tuneup and had trouble starting when cold so pulled the distributor. purchased a tuneup kit and installed. No spark. i have followed Bruce"s advice to others on this issue. still no spark. I have proper voltage to top of coil. Checked continuity of the plug wires. Even went so far as to put all old parts (except point) back in. still no spark. Any advice? What am I missing?
 
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duey
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If the ammeter does NOT deflect with each compression as you crank it over, my first guess is the spring pigtail under the coil is not making proper contact below.

ANother question: What do you mean by "...proper voltage..." at the top of the coil? Should read battery voltage IF the points are OPEN, & should be likely +/- 3 volts when CLOSED...

Report back~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Shimano wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:16:35 01/13/13) I have a 1940 9n with front distributor. drove it into the garage to work on. It had never had a tuneup and had trouble starting when cold so pulled the distributor. purchased a tuneup kit and installed. No spark. i have followed Bruce"s advice to others on this issue. still no spark. I have proper voltage to top of coil. Checked continuity of the plug wires. Even went so far as to put all old parts (except point) back in. still no spark. Any advice? What am I missing?
What is voltage at top of coil doing during cranking? If not switching back and forth from battery voltage (points open) to ~half battery voltage (points closed), then depending on what voltage is actually doing, you will need to look for a short or open, likely in distributor. So, what voltages do you see?
 
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old
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Points set at 0.015?? Also can you open and close the points by hand with it on the engine and ignition on and hear/see a spark at the points. Did you by chance buy the cheap worthless points from TSC or did you get a good set like B/W or blue streak?? Also make sure the wire from the condenser is not shorting things out
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

As others are telling you.....the problem is most likely inside the distributor.

But, before you check anything else, make sure you have the correct voltage at the top of the coil. It should be battery voltage w/ the points open & about half that w/ the points closed.

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok, & that you have correct voltage to the coil, the most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the frontmount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw & where the copper strip attaches. (it’s fiber & will wear out; poke & prod w/ your meter leads to make sure it still works)

2. The pigtail at the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the concave head brass screw inside the distributor. (With the coil on, the pigtail must firmly contact the brass screw. No contact = no spark.).

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate. (look very carefully for cracks & breaks)

4. The condenser wire grounding to the plate or side of the distributor.

5. The tab on the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the brass button on the cap. (With the cap on, the tab must firmly contact the brass button. No contact = no spark.)

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground. (the open part of the clip goes between 7 & 9 o’clock on the plate. That puts the straight part of the clip opposite of the timing screw at 3 o’clock)

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket.(the coil must not move at all; if it does, replace the gasket or bail. Or stick some cardboard under the bail).

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket. (the cap AND coil have gaskets)

9. Dirty/corroded/burned/incorrectly gapped or misaligned points.

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap.

Unless the coil is cracked or shows a dead short, chances are it's fine; square coils rarely fail cold. Pull the distributor & do a continuity check.

First, make sure your meter/light works (don't ask....)

You can change points everyday & it will not fix bad bushings. If you are having trouble w/ points failure, check the shaft. If you detect movement, chances are it needs new bushings.

Inspect the points; if they are pitted or burned, replace them. Next, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. Make sure the points align correctly. Proper alignment is also critical to longevity. Look at the points when they are closed; both sides should mate evenly. Then, check the gap at .015 on the high point of all 4 cam lobes.

Now, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. What ever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts) Then place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Then, hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush w/ the timing gear cover.

Finally, double check your firing order & plug wires. It’s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It’s very easy to cross 3 & 4.

Post back w/ results & any other questions.
75 Tips

 
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Shimano
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

This a 12v. It has 12v to coil when open and about 6v when
closed. Pigtail is making contact. I have continuity from top of
coil to points. I have found that the replacement parts vary a
great deal in tolerances compared to the ones one the tractor.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Shimano wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:34:57 01/13/13) This a 12v. It has 12v to coil when open and about 6v when
closed. Pigtail is making contact. I have continuity from top of
coil to points. I have found that the replacement parts vary a
great deal in tolerances compared to the ones one the tractor.
Check to see if distributor cap or rotor is broken AND verify that HV tab on coil is contacting button on cap.
 
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Curtsat15
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Probably the flat copper conductor inside the distributor, check that. Had that problem myself.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

curtsat15 wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:06:41 01/13/13) Probably the flat copper conductor inside the distributor, check that. Had that problem myself.
He said that he reads voltages (full/half/full/etc.) at top of coil thus indicating switching of current thru primary is taking place.........that rules out the copper strip as well as shorts/opens in distributor primary circuit.
 
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Shimano
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bruce- I have your notes printed and on the bench. Previously went through it passes all tests you list. I may put the old point back in to see if i can get an spark.
 
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old
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Take the flap off the box the points came in and slide them between the points a number of times then try for a spark again. Points now days sometimes have a coating on them to protect them form corroding
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n no spark Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Shimano wrote:
(quoted from post at 23:03:33 01/13/13) Bruce- I have your notes printed and on the bench. Previously went through it passes all tests you list. I may put the old point back in to see if i can get an spark.
Points are not the problem! Can't you guys understand that if he is seeing battery voltage switching back & forth with half-battery voltage, that the points are OK, the copper strip is OK and the pig tale isn't shorted! Damn! Stop repeating all the same old wrong stuff! Listen, read, pay attention! Beating a dead horse!
 
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