4-51 Detroit Diesel

[Burgess equipment]

Please forgive my ignorance on antique tractors,I am a heavy equipment-oilfeild mechanic.I do a LOT of two stroke Detroit work,have a large supply of engines and parts and lots of experience on these units.I recently brought home a 4-51(not a 4-53 or 4-71) that is in suprisingly good condition.This is a very rare Detroit that was built in the 50's,it is a true 2-stroke,it has no valves.My question to you is this unit came in a cast frame with radiator and hood sheetmetal that looks like Massey-Harris.There is no M-H identification,only Detroit serial #4C3270 and model 43301.I have tried researching,but found nothing.Starting to think it might be an experimental model.Any info would be appreciated.

 

[Dieseltech]

Never heard of a Detroit 4-51. All Detroits I've ever seen had either two or four exhaust valves.

 

[ptfarmer]

A super rare engine, not very many made, my quess is that someone was trying to cobble something together (no M-H used that engine).

A video (not mine) of a 4-51 running.

 

[Burgess equipment]

Thanks for your response.I don't think this was cobbled together,it has M-H style bellhousing that is not used for Detroit(and is not listed in the parts book).All looks original in a Massey style cast frame with sheetmetal that looks original(factory made to fit with the huge muffler)

 

[Dieseltech]

Thanks for your response.I don't think this was cobbled together,it has M-H style bellhousing that is not used for Detroit(and is not listed in the parts book).All looks original in a Massey style cast frame with sheetmetal that looks original(factory made to fit with the huge muffler)

Watching it run, are you SURE it has no valves? Looks to me like it has a valve cover for EXHAUST valves like other Detroit engines have. A true 2 cycle no valve engine would have the exhaust opposite the intake inlet, similar to a chains saw engine for example, and would not need a head mounted exhaust manifold. Any idea what the engine was originally used in?

 

[DanielW]

Please forgive my ignorance on antique tractors,I am a heavy equipment-oilfeild mechanic.I do a LOT of two stroke Detroit work,have a large supply of engines and parts and lots of experience on these units.I recently brought home a 4-51(not a 4-53 or 4-71) that is in suprisingly good condition.This is a very rare Detroit that was built in the 50's,it is a true 2-stroke,it has no valves.My question to you is this unit came in a cast frame with radiator and hood sheetmetal that looks like Massey-Harris.There is no M-H identification,only Detroit serial #4C3270 and model 43301.I have tried researching,but found nothing.Starting to think it might be an experimental model.Any info would be appreciated.

If you get a chance, post some pictures - sounds like a really interesting unit: I love anything with an old 2-stroke Jimmy. Have dealt with a few of them on old sawmills and Olivers.

I don't think it's an original Massey anything though. They closest I can think of is the Massey Ferguson 98 - made during the transition from Massey Harris to Massey Ferguson. They were a re-badged Ollie 99 with Massey sheet metal and had a Detroit 3-71. One of my favorite tractors. I've thought about putting a 3-71 into my MH55 a few times to turn it into a usable tractor (rather than the wretched Continental the 55's had in them).

Maybe there's some odd chance someone's made a power unit from a junked Massey 98 and swapped the 3-71 for the 4-51, using the original sheet metal and frame off the 98. I rather doubt it though.

 

[Burgess equipment]

Here's some pics of the 4-51 as it came in.Rolls by hand,but all 4 injectors were stuck(very common in stored Detroits)I removed the injectors and soaked and CAREFULLY freed them up.Engine should run,but I am inspecting everything carefully as parts are non-existant.Bore-scoped the cyl's and they look remarkably good!Someone has replaced the original starter with a hydro-starter,and the cover on the bellhsg does'nt look original.Also,the starter mounts from the rear of the hsg,not under the blower or opp side,very odd.

 

[DanielW]

Hmm, very interesting. Grill appears to be off a Massey 44, not a 55 as I would have guessed. Does the casting look like it's been split and widened? I know that was the issue with cramming a 3-71 into a 55 (there's a chap on here name Ben who had one): the original Massey casting had to be widened significantly to accept the Detroit. I would have guessed the 4-51 was about the same footprint as the 3/71, so if the frame of a 55 had to be widened, I would have thought the frame of a 44 had to be modified even more. But I don't see any sign of it being widened. If it has been, they've done a tidy job.

I'd say it's almost certainly a homemade/one-off jobber, but a very nicely done job. If Massey had the wherewithal to put a real engine in the 44 or 55 casting you'd think they would have done it for the tractors (actually, I guess they did when they put the Perkins P6 in the UK version of the 44). You can see where the original Continental engine mounts were, though they've done a good job of modifying the casting for the Detroit mounts.

A very nice score on your end. I'd love to belt that bad-boy up to one of my old circular sawmills. There's nothing like a wound-up Detroit screaming over the countryside; turning logs and diesel into sawdust, noise, and black smoke (with the occasional stick of lumber).

 

[DanielW]

I think my biggest question would be about cooling. I'd be very surprised if you could keep a 4 cylinder Detroit cooled sufficiently using the rad from a 44. But evidently it must have worked to some degree. Maybe they just weren't loading it really hard.

 

[Burgess equipment]

No evidence of frame mods.The mtr mts line up like factory.And the engine bellhsg appears to be factory for this application!

 

[DanielW]

No evidence of frame mods.The mtr mts line up like factory.And the engine bellhsg appears to be factory for this application!

If that actually is an unmodified frame off a 44, you could almost certainly drop that in a junked 44 tractor and have a really nifty and useful tractor, being able to use it as a power unit via the PTO or belt pulley or as a zippy field or pulling tractor. The Massey tractors had a pretty simple roller chain coupling between the clutch bellhousing output and tranny input that would be almost plug-and-play with that clutch. And 44's (at least around here) are a dime a dozen: You can pick up a running 44 for less than $1500, and one with a bum engine for less than $1000

 

[ptfarmer]

Watching it run, are you SURE it has no valves? Looks to me like it has a valve cover for EXHAUST valves like other Detroit engines have. A true 2 cycle no valve engine would have the exhaust opposite the intake inlet, similar to a chains saw engine for example, and would not need a head mounted exhaust manifold. Any idea what the engine was originally used in?

It still has rocker arms to run the injectors.

 

[ptfarmer]

No evidence of frame mods.The mtr mts line up like factory.And the engine bellhsg appears to be factory for this application!

Time to find a MH 44, and put it in there, and have some fun with it I'd say!!

 

[Masseyharrisnut]

Please forgive my ignorance on antique tractors,I am a heavy equipment-oilfeild mechanic.I do a LOT of two stroke Detroit work,have a large supply of engines and parts and lots of experience on these units.I recently brought home a 4-51(not a 4-53 or 4-71) that is in suprisingly good condition.This is a very rare Detroit that was built in the 50's,it is a true 2-stroke,it has no valves.My question to you is this unit came in a cast frame with radiator and hood sheetmetal that looks like Massey-Harris.There is no M-H identification,only Detroit serial #4C3270 and model 43301.I have tried researching,but found nothing.Starting to think it might be an experimental model.Any info would be appreciated.

Great Find. Not sure where you are located but if your any where close to southern Alberta maybe I could buy it from you??

 

[J. Schwiebert]

Never heard of a Detroit 4-51. All Detroits I've ever seen had either two or four exhaust valves.

 

[J. Schwiebert]

A super rare engine, not very many made, my quess is that someone was trying to cobble something together (no M-H used that engine).

A video (not mine) of a 4-51 running.

A man go to church with has a Detroit shop manual for those engines. He showed it to and a friend of mine. It is a real Detoit shop manual. There is also a 2 cylinder version of that engine!

 

[buickanddeere]

Never heard of a Detroit 4-51. All Detroits I've ever seen had either two or four exhaust valves.

Some marine and locomotive two strokes were built without exhaust valves . Just piston ported cylinder walls .
Some with centrifugal blowers instead of fixed displacement rotor blowers .