41 B Timing any other things to check

[Fixingfarmer]

Warning super long story I’ll skip some but friends have a B that the whole family has fixed up for the son with autism to take to the fair.

I wasn’t able to help till last week since dad had some health issues and I needed to focus on planting this spring.

Crankshaft was replaced because splines were not so good on it and the driving disk. I think the new (used) ones are worse but that is neither here nor there. What is relevant is they didn’t bother to time it with the mark on the crank and the mark on the cam gear

They got it together painted and it wouldn’t start. Since we are done I went over last night and we had gas pouring out the carb whole thing was full of fuel.

Pulled carb off my running B float problem solved till I get time to rebuild it

Still no start. Was shooting gas backward out the carb when and got the compression tester 0 both sides. That’s when l discovered the timing issue. To be clear everything ignition wise was fine that’s what we were checking last night and even would line up on one hit on the impulse mark.

But the compression issue was a dead giveaway as it ran going into the garage and rather well from the sound of it

Lined everything up like it should be but definitely shakes a bit.

It was converted to a distributor and is 12 volt I was going to go back with a timing light so there’s no more questions and align the impulse mark on the flywheel with the line on the case and while this is definitely overkill I should be able to get dead perfect on target.

How likely is it to smack one of the valves with a piston if it wasn’t timed right? Head appears to be correct I was debating borescoping it to take a peak but don’t really want to add fuel to their stress level. The uncle who was helping already feels horrible

Push rods look fine everything in the valve train seems to be behaving it lined up just like the book said when I rotated the crank to the exhaust open the marked tooth on the cam gear that I had been holding it up in the air was waiting for it when I had rolled it over first try couldn’t believe it.

The shaking is concerning but like I said I figure to time first then start looking around I checked the clutch side of flywheel to make sure it was tight…what else? Flywheel I suppose.

It also had every wire pulled off of it when I got there as this was somewhat frustrating to the poor guy. I can safely say there isn’t a fuse on the machine anywhere which we probably should remedy. We have a nice key switch though and was going to fuse the light switch it is equipped with 2 12 volt bulbs so I figured a 20 amp unless anyone says otherwise.

Old school points I figured a 20 amp as well and to keep them all seperate I seem to remember my harness on the late A only having one for almost all of it? But I’m too tired to go look tonight. I’ve not had any trouble running the loads I usually have off one wire from the switch on that single fuse but i usually end up with LED lights so I was concerned about the load a bit it appears there’s a separate light supply cable originally all the way to the starter I do usually like to make them run on switched power so if I had the road lights on and it’s daylight and I don’t notice the key shuts them off. We do make sure to at least have a red light here.

I also let the smoke out of the 3 wire alternator by hooking up the wrong wire to the exciter to add to the stress level. Hadn’t ever seen that happen before and was a little confused as exciter should be switched power…?!!? definitely was smoking and found a parasitic load after that when I was checking and had the negative cable off the battery so it’s getting replaced the other cables go to self explanatory things so I’m not sure how that happened chicken or the egg but I sure look like I caused it

I think that’s all the news it was a busy night and morning. Happy Memorial Day to All!!

Thanks in advance for any imput

 

[greenmech]

Warning super long story I’ll skip some but friends have a B that the whole family has fixed up for the son with autism to take to the fair.

I wasn’t able to help till last week since dad had some health issues and I needed to focus on planting this spring.

Crankshaft was replaced because splines were not so good on it and the driving disk. I think the new (used) ones are worse but that is neither here nor there. What is relevant is they didn’t bother to time it with the mark on the crank and the mark on the cam gear

They got it together painted and it wouldn’t start. Since we are done I went over last night and we had gas pouring out the carb whole thing was full of fuel.

Pulled carb off my running B float problem solved till I get time to rebuild it

Still no start. Was shooting gas backward out the carb when and got the compression tester 0 both sides. That’s when l discovered the timing issue. To be clear everything ignition wise was fine that’s what we were checking last night and even would line up on one hit on the impulse mark.

But the compression issue was a dead giveaway as it ran going into the garage and rather well from the sound of it

Lined everything up like it should be but definitely shakes a bit.

It was converted to a distributor and is 12 volt I was going to go back with a timing light so there’s no more questions and align the impulse mark on the flywheel with the line on the case and while this is definitely overkill I should be able to get dead perfect on target.

How likely is it to smack one of the valves with a piston if it wasn’t timed right? Head appears to be correct I was debating borescoping it to take a peak but don’t really want to add fuel to their stress level. The uncle who was helping already feels horrible

Push rods look fine everything in the valve train seems to be behaving it lined up just like the book said when I rotated the crank to the exhaust open the marked tooth on the cam gear that I had been holding it up in the air was waiting for it when I had rolled it over first try couldn’t believe it.

The shaking is concerning but like I said I figure to time first then start looking around I checked the clutch side of flywheel to make sure it was tight…what else? Flywheel I suppose.

It also had every wire pulled off of it when I got there as this was somewhat frustrating to the poor guy. I can safely say there isn’t a fuse on the machine anywhere which we probably should remedy. We have a nice key switch though and was going to fuse the light switch it is equipped with 2 12 volt bulbs so I figured a 20 amp unless anyone says otherwise.

Old school points I figured a 20 amp as well and to keep them all seperate I seem to remember my harness on the late A only having one for almost all of it? But I’m too tired to go look tonight. I’ve not had any trouble running the loads I usually have off one wire from the switch on that single fuse but i usually end up with LED lights so I was concerned about the load a bit it appears there’s a separate light supply cable originally all the way to the starter I do usually like to make them run on switched power so if I had the road lights on and it’s daylight and I don’t notice the key shuts them off. We do make sure to at least have a red light here.

I also let the smoke out of the 3 wire alternator by hooking up the wrong wire to the exciter to add to the stress level. Hadn’t ever seen that happen before and was a little confused as exciter should be switched power…?!!? definitely was smoking and found a parasitic load after that when I was checking and had the negative cable off the battery so it’s getting replaced the other cables go to self explanatory things so I’m not sure how that happened chicken or the egg but I sure look like I caused it

I think that’s all the news it was a busy night and morning. Happy Memorial Day to All!!

Thanks in advance for any imput

Flywheel and or clutch driver not on correct splines. Weights on both of them should be 180 degrees apart. Ron MN

 

[wore out]

Warning super long story I’ll skip some but friends have a B that the whole family has fixed up for the son with autism to take to the fair.

I wasn’t able to help till last week since dad had some health issues and I needed to focus on planting this spring.

Crankshaft was replaced because splines were not so good on it and the driving disk. I think the new (used) ones are worse but that is neither here nor there. What is relevant is they didn’t bother to time it with the mark on the crank and the mark on the cam gear

They got it together painted and it wouldn’t start. Since we are done I went over last night and we had gas pouring out the carb whole thing was full of fuel.

Pulled carb off my running B float problem solved till I get time to rebuild it

Still no start. Was shooting gas backward out the carb when and got the compression tester 0 both sides. That’s when l discovered the timing issue. To be clear everything ignition wise was fine that’s what we were checking last night and even would line up on one hit on the impulse mark.

But the compression issue was a dead giveaway as it ran going into the garage and rather well from the sound of it

Lined everything up like it should be but definitely shakes a bit.

It was converted to a distributor and is 12 volt I was going to go back with a timing light so there’s no more questions and align the impulse mark on the flywheel with the line on the case and while this is definitely overkill I should be able to get dead perfect on target.

How likely is it to smack one of the valves with a piston if it wasn’t timed right? Head appears to be correct I was debating borescoping it to take a peak but don’t really want to add fuel to their stress level. The uncle who was helping already feels horrible

Push rods look fine everything in the valve train seems to be behaving it lined up just like the book said when I rotated the crank to the exhaust open the marked tooth on the cam gear that I had been holding it up in the air was waiting for it when I had rolled it over first try couldn’t believe it.

The shaking is concerning but like I said I figure to time first then start looking around I checked the clutch side of flywheel to make sure it was tight…what else? Flywheel I suppose.

It also had every wire pulled off of it when I got there as this was somewhat frustrating to the poor guy. I can safely say there isn’t a fuse on the machine anywhere which we probably should remedy. We have a nice key switch though and was going to fuse the light switch it is equipped with 2 12 volt bulbs so I figured a 20 amp unless anyone says otherwise.

Old school points I figured a 20 amp as well and to keep them all seperate I seem to remember my harness on the late A only having one for almost all of it? But I’m too tired to go look tonight. I’ve not had any trouble running the loads I usually have off one wire from the switch on that single fuse but i usually end up with LED lights so I was concerned about the load a bit it appears there’s a separate light supply cable originally all the way to the starter I do usually like to make them run on switched power so if I had the road lights on and it’s daylight and I don’t notice the key shuts them off. We do make sure to at least have a red light here.

I also let the smoke out of the 3 wire alternator by hooking up the wrong wire to the exciter to add to the stress level. Hadn’t ever seen that happen before and was a little confused as exciter should be switched power…?!!? definitely was smoking and found a parasitic load after that when I was checking and had the negative cable off the battery so it’s getting replaced the other cables go to self explanatory things so I’m not sure how that happened chicken or the egg but I sure look like I caused it

I think that’s all the news it was a busy night and morning. Happy Memorial Day to All!!

Thanks in advance for any imput

1. Are the flywheel AND clutch driver "timing marks" matched to the corresponding marks on the crankshaft?

2. As to "letting the smoke out" of the alternator, any chance what is detailed below happened? If there's no lamp, resistor, or diode in the "excite" circuit AND no connection between the output stud and the battery the smoke will leak out of the diode trio and possibly the VR.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

It could be exactly what happened most I’ve seen have the 2 prong plug you can’t plug in backwards at least not easily and this one just has 2 spades on 2 completely seperate wires as well but in this case the failure in the wire headed to Bat terminal above would be me flip flopping both around and not having the other one hooked up could do it for sure

Thank you for the diagram when I put the new alternator on I’ll check before wiring for sure also the only indicator would be battery terminal to amp meter gauge so what you are saying is I should make the addition of a little red light as well

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Flywheel and or clutch driver not on correct splines. Weights on both of them should be 180 degrees apart. Ron MN

I’ll look and check I believe a v mark on the crank and driving disk side if I remember right what’s on the crank and flywheel side?

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

I’ll look and check I believe a v mark on the crank and driving disk side if I remember right what’s on the crank and flywheel side?

You should have a matching V on the ends of the crank, both ends. Since the crank was replaced by someone else did they get the cam and governor gear marks aligned. You have to lift the governor a bit and pull off the crankcase cover to see the marks. The drive slots for the distributor should be horizontal when the LH IMPULSE mark is lined up.

 

[UnstyledB]

Warning super long story I’ll skip some but friends have a B that the whole family has fixed up for the son with autism to take to the fair.

I wasn’t able to help till last week since dad had some health issues and I needed to focus on planting this spring.

Crankshaft was replaced because splines were not so good on it and the driving disk. I think the new (used) ones are worse but that is neither here nor there. What is relevant is they didn’t bother to time it with the mark on the crank and the mark on the cam gear

They got it together painted and it wouldn’t start. Since we are done I went over last night and we had gas pouring out the carb whole thing was full of fuel.

Pulled carb off my running B float problem solved till I get time to rebuild it

Still no start. Was shooting gas backward out the carb when and got the compression tester 0 both sides. That’s when l discovered the timing issue. To be clear everything ignition wise was fine that’s what we were checking last night and even would line up on one hit on the impulse mark.

But the compression issue was a dead giveaway as it ran going into the garage and rather well from the sound of it

Lined everything up like it should be but definitely shakes a bit.

It was converted to a distributor and is 12 volt I was going to go back with a timing light so there’s no more questions and align the impulse mark on the flywheel with the line on the case and while this is definitely overkill I should be able to get dead perfect on target.

How likely is it to smack one of the valves with a piston if it wasn’t timed right? Head appears to be correct I was debating borescoping it to take a peak but don’t really want to add fuel to their stress level. The uncle who was helping already feels horrible

Push rods look fine everything in the valve train seems to be behaving it lined up just like the book said when I rotated the crank to the exhaust open the marked tooth on the cam gear that I had been holding it up in the air was waiting for it when I had rolled it over first try couldn’t believe it.

The shaking is concerning but like I said I figure to time first then start looking around I checked the clutch side of flywheel to make sure it was tight…what else? Flywheel I suppose.

It also had every wire pulled off of it when I got there as this was somewhat frustrating to the poor guy. I can safely say there isn’t a fuse on the machine anywhere which we probably should remedy. We have a nice key switch though and was going to fuse the light switch it is equipped with 2 12 volt bulbs so I figured a 20 amp unless anyone says otherwise.

Old school points I figured a 20 amp as well and to keep them all seperate I seem to remember my harness on the late A only having one for almost all of it? But I’m too tired to go look tonight. I’ve not had any trouble running the loads I usually have off one wire from the switch on that single fuse but i usually end up with LED lights so I was concerned about the load a bit it appears there’s a separate light supply cable originally all the way to the starter I do usually like to make them run on switched power so if I had the road lights on and it’s daylight and I don’t notice the key shuts them off. We do make sure to at least have a red light here.

I also let the smoke out of the 3 wire alternator by hooking up the wrong wire to the exciter to add to the stress level. Hadn’t ever seen that happen before and was a little confused as exciter should be switched power…?!!? definitely was smoking and found a parasitic load after that when I was checking and had the negative cable off the battery so it’s getting replaced the other cables go to self explanatory things so I’m not sure how that happened chicken or the egg but I sure look like I caused it

I think that’s all the news it was a busy night and morning. Happy Memorial Day to All!!

Thanks in advance for any imput

The clutch driver should have a rivet in the hub that fits over a flat spot on the end of the crank. Then a big washer and slotted nut. If the rivet isn't over the flat spot I don't think it is even possible to tighten up the clutch driver. Still, it is worth checking.

 

[ChrisInPA]

I’ll look and check I believe a v mark on the crank and driving disk side if I remember right what’s on the crank and flywheel side?

Not knowing the serial number, is it possible the flywheel/clutch driver/crank assembly is mismatched? Not sure if it’s possible to have incorrect reciprocating assembly pieces fit.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

You should have a matching V on the ends of the crank, both ends. Since the crank was replaced by someone else did they get the cam and governor gear marks aligned. You have to lift the governor a bit and pull off the crankcase cover to see the marks. The drive slots for the distributor should be horizontal when the LH IMPULSE mark is lined up.

Yes I have realigned the cam and crank so that is all in time and it started. That is what the main issue was. I’ll check for marks on the flywheel to align

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

Not knowing the serial number, is it possible the flywheel/clutch driver/crank assembly is mismatched? Not sure if it’s possible to have incorrect reciprocating assembly pieces fit.

My A has a code, W42 as I recall, stamped on the crank, flywheel and driver. Leads me to think they were balanced as a unit.

 

[620 John]

If I'm not mistaken, counterweights in the flywheel and clutch driver are supposed to be 180 deg from the crank journals. So let's say no. 1 is at TDC the flywheel counterweight will be at 3 o'clock position when viewed from the side. Same with the clutch driver side. Like Greenmech said the clutch driver and flywheel counterweights will be 180 apart when you're finished.

 

[used red MN]

How likely is it to smack one of the valves with a piston if it wasn’t timed right?

A compression test should tell you if a valve is bent. Sound like the “shaking” is more likely something not correct with the clutch driver.

 

[ChrisInPA]

Yes I have realigned the cam and crank so that is all in time and it started. That is what the main issue was. I’ll check for marks on the flywheel to align

How much of a hassle is this when everything is already together? Assuming cam bearing retainer has to be removed and governor raised up.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

How much of a hassle is this when everything is already together? Assuming cam bearing retainer has to be removed and governor raised up.

Incredible hassle. Left cam bearing removed

Clutch disassembled then gear housing pulled just enough to loosen the right side cam bearing. Governor raised then rotated crank

We had put it so the exhaust was just opening like the book told us so that mark lined up when I moved the flywheel to the mark about 3/4 turn it was off

 

[ChrisInPA]

Incredible hassle. Left cam bearing removed

Clutch disassembled then gear housing pulled just enough to loosen the right side cam bearing. Governor raised then rotated crank

We had put it so the exhaust was just opening like the book told us so that mark lined up when I moved the flywheel to the mark about 3/4 turn it was off

Off by 3/4 turn? Wow. Any chance you counted the number of teeth that was off? I’m banking this for future reference if I encounter something like it in the future.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

A compression test should tell you if a valve is bent. Sound like the “shaking” is more likely something not correct with the clutch driver.

Good point

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Off by 3/4 turn? Wow. Any chance you counted the number of teeth that was off? I’m banking this for future reference if I encounter something like it in the future.

I’ll count the teeth when I’m there on Wednesday but yeah quite a ways off approximately the distance between the 2 flywheel marks

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

A compression test should tell you if a valve is bent. Sound like the “shaking” is more likely something not correct with the clutch driver.

This post reminded me. FIL had his (now mine) A worked on and when it came back it was shaking pretty bad. I noticed the dust plate was loose on the bolts so when I slid the pulley back to tighten and rewire I noticed the driver was out of time. Matched up the marks and it was fine.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Update time finished up with it this morning.

Installed a new alternator they didn’t want a red light. There is now a good switch.

There was a broken clutch dog in the clutch and they had put a different clutch operating mechanism in because the doner tractors looked better. I noticed the casting number was different and even after I repaired the dog and put a new stud in it wasn’t operating so we switched it back moved the new brake pad too it and then everything adjusted like normal. No shaking after that dog was fixed and I for sure had it on the right spline. Flywheel looked right and tight.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions it will be fun to see at the fair!