Aftermarket lift cylinder - more grind to fit.

Dave G9N

Member
EDIT:
I will describe the grinding and mounting in a new post at the current end of this thread. I am adding this to the first post to tell anyone who has not seen this before where to find the post describing my solution to the problems:
END OF EDIT


This is to warn people that there is yet another quality issue to be aware of that can result in having to grind something to fit. This time it is aftermarket lift cylinders for 9N and 2N tractors. Can't say if the 8N has any more room. I don't have one. I suspect someone made new patterns for the lift cylinder castings and soon everyone will be having to deal with another stupid shortcut taken by [CENSORED]

I ordered the fleabay lift cylinder kit from Total Power Solutions. it is slightly too long to fit my 2N. The front end of the cylinder is not shaped like the old ones, it is more squared off. The top opening in my 2N may be slightly off, but the clearance is tight in any case and the oversized parts cause problems with clearance. I had to grind the bottom of the center section to install the oversized pump valve bodies earlier.

I am afraid that the only solution here is to grind the front of the opening in the center section where the lift cover is mounted. My plan is to make a plug to close off the center section to keep the grinding debris out of the bearings and the sump. I want to avoid dropping the pump to clean up the mess.

When I went to install the lift cover, the screw holes wouldn't line up. When I looked in the holes, they seemed to be off by somewhere around 1/8". I had to hoist the cover back up and try to measure and inspect to find the interference and figure out if there was a workaround. I finally wound up inserting some 7/16 threaded rods to line everything up and lowered the lift cover to see where it would hit. The lift cover had to be supported on blocks to sit level for the measurement. I checked the threaded rods to be sure they were square to the surfaces. The picture is not good, but cell phones, bright sun and high contrast subjects don't mix well. The light area at the bottom is the top surface of the center section. the thing marked EXXO is a machinists square.There is a shaded area to the left of the square which will hit the end of the cylinder. That is the area that I need to grind to get the pump in the tractor.

mvphoto108179.jpg

For the more eagle eyed gurus, the nut should be a bolt head. The bolt is a new grade 5 with a 5/8" head that can turn where the 11/16" nut will not. I don't see any major issue here.
mvphoto108723.jpg



This post was edited by Dave G9N on 08/19/2023 at 05:33 pm.
 
I have never worked on that issue on an N but
have read about that very thing here before.
You do know that the difference between a
parts changer and a mechanic is the mechanic
can make parts fit as needed.
Yes?
Be glad you were smart enough to adapt and
improvise the thing.
Some guys would be stalled and unable to fix
that flaw.
Keep on mechaniching. And don't look back...
 
(quoted from post at 14:35:01 08/03/23) Necessary on 8N, too, just in different place in order to clear linkage. :(
t did have some relief in a small area of the casting for the linkage on the back end. I m meant that the front i.e. BOTH ends may need grinding. The cast in divot for the 8N is pretty small. I should get a picture before I try to put it back in.

I ground the opening on the tractor. lots of tape and Tyvek to seal out the grinding debris. Tyvek is not heat resistant enough. (I should let spell check have it's way, 'Yvette' sounds more interesting.) The sparks from the grinder burned through. Not much got through, but I still had to rinse the cavity with kerosene just in case.
 
I had the same problem with my 8N. Had to grind to fit. Also ordered a new relief valve. It was to big to fit into the housing. I called them and told them what the problem was. They sent another one. Same problem. I called again and, get this, they told me to drill out the housing to a larger size and put in new threads. I told them that their idea was could not possibly work. Argued for 15 minutes and gave up. I put the old one back in. The two new ones are still laying on my bench.
 
(quoted from post at 07:33:01 08/05/23) I had the same problem with my 8N. Had to grind to fit. Also ordered a new relief valve. It was to big to fit into the housing. I called them and told them what the problem was. They sent another one. Same problem. I called again and, get this, they told me to drill out the housing to a larger size and put in new threads. I told them that their idea was could not possibly work. Argued for 15 minutes and gave up. I put the old one back in. The two new ones are still laying on my bench.

This is why you should buy new OEM parts. Oh wait - the OEM has decided the tractor is obsolete and is no longer making service parts for it.

Pardon me if I sound unsympathetic - these aftermarket people are trying to reverse engineer and support a 80 year old tractor that the OEM abandoned decades ago. What they get for that effort is people complaining about having to do a little minor grinding on a casting to get clearance. Stop whining and be happy there is still a source for imperfect but servicable new parts. That too is going to end.

TOH
 
I talked to some experienced tractor restoration and repair people yesterday at Tractor Land in Onamia MN. They said that it is very important to install the leather backer ring with the rough side toward the O-ring. They have repaired a lot of tractors and were very definite about the fact that in their experience it was important. Has anyone else found this to be important?

They also said not to soak the leather. Just wet it and give it a minute or so. I had suspected that soaking was a bad idea and only sprayed mine with some windshield washer fluid and eazed it on right away. It worked. I had to work the leather into the groove with a plastic spatula as it went into the cylinder. I just wish I knew which way it is oriented. At least I found out before I reinstalled the lift cover.

Windshield washer fluid is mostly water and was a few feet away. The alcohol doesn't bother leather seals. (It can screw up the appearance of shoes and clothing.)

(quoted from post at 05:10:30 08/05/23)
This is why you should buy new OEM parts. Oh wait - the OEM has decided the tractor is obsolete and is no longer making service parts for it.

Pardon me if I sound unsympathetic - these aftermarket people are trying to reverse engineer and support a 80 year old tractor that the OEM abandoned decades ago. What they get for that effort is people complaining about having to do a little minor grinding on a casting to get clearance. Stop whining and be happy there is still a source for imperfect but serviceable new parts. That too is going to end.

TOH
ell, you have a point. Good parts are hard to find, and expensive, but since the perverse engineers are cutting corners on form and fit, how good are they at function? I finally found a source of parts that will fit. Too late, I already did the grinding.

I had to buy a new lift cover gasket as a result of the damage caused by trying to install the oversized part. The folks at Tractor Land are old school tractor mechanics with a traditionalist attitude. They say that they don't use the ill fitting chinese (edit: OOPS: Turkish. It says Turkey right on the label. They were made by some Turkish turkey in turkey.) parts, but the parts that do fit cost them more than the retail plus shipping on the cheap ones we are whining about. I didn't ask if they would ship parts.

I agree with your lack of sympathy to a degree. You get what you pay for. You pay either way, with the extra work to fit mismanufactured or pay for ones that do fit. When you are paying a shop $100 per hour to grind and clean, the cheap parts cost more. When you DIY you save money, but you had better clean the abrasive debris properly or it will cost you a bundle in bearings or worse. The valve bodies are a full 1/4 inch thicker than the originals. That is pretty slipshod unless it is to compensate for a lower strength less expensive grade of cast iron, which is also slipshod engineering.

This post was edited by Dave G9N on 09/21/2023 at 09:48 pm.
 
(quoted from post at 11:58:47 08/05/23) I talked to some experienced tractor restoration and repair people yesterday at Tractor Land in Onamia MN. They said that it is very important to install the leather backer ring with the rough side toward the O-ring. They have repaired a lot of tractors and were very definite about the fact that in their experience it was important. Has anyone else found this to be important?

They also said not to soak the leather. Just wet it and give it a minute or so. I had suspected that soaking was a bad idea and only sprayed mine with some windshield washer fluid and eazed it on right away. It worked. I had to work the leather into the groove with a plastic spatula as it went into the cylinder. I just wish I knew which way it is oriented. At least I found out before I reinstalled the lift cover.

Windshield washer fluid is mostly water and was a few feet away. The alcohol doesn't bother leather seals. (It can screw up the appearance of shoes and clothing.)

(quoted from post at 05:10:30 08/05/23)
This is why you should buy new OEM parts. Oh wait - the OEM has decided the tractor is obsolete and is no longer making service parts for it.

Pardon me if I sound unsympathetic - these aftermarket people are trying to reverse engineer and support a 80 year old tractor that the OEM abandoned decades ago. What they get for that effort is people complaining about having to do a little minor grinding on a casting to get clearance. Stop whining and be happy there is still a source for imperfect but serviceable new parts. That too is going to end.

TOH
ell, you have a point. Good parts are hard to find, and expensive, but since the perverse engineers are cutting corners on form and fit, how good are they at function? I finally found a source of parts that will fit. Too late, I already did the grinding.

I had to buy a new lift cover gasket as a result of the damage caused by trying to install the oversized part. The folks at Tractor Land are old school tractor mechanics with a traditionalist attitude. They say that they don't use the ill fitting chinese parts, but the parts that do fit cost them more than the retail plus shipping on the cheap ones we are whining about. I didn't ask if they would ship parts.

I agree with your lack of sympathy to a degree. You get what you pay for. You pay either way, with the extra work to fit mismanufactured or pay for ones that do fit. When you are paying a shop $100 per hour to grind and clean, the cheap parts cost more. When you DIY you save money, but you had better clean the abrasive debris properly or it will cost you a bundle in bearings or worse. The valve bodies are a full 1/4 inch thicker than the originals. That is pretty slipshod unless it is to compensate for a lower strength less expensive grade of cast iron, which is also slipshod engineering.

Maybe it's just the inherent difficulty of predicting shrinkage and maintaining unusually close dimensional accuracy in a low volume casting reverse engineered by one party and being produced in different foundries by different people.

In any event I am sure folks would appreciate a link to any parts you have sourced and think fit better.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 10:03:00 08/05/23)
Maybe it's just the inherent difficulty of predicting shrinkage and maintaining unusually close dimensional accuracy in a low volume casting reverse engineered by one party and being produced in different foundries by different people.

In any event I am sure folks would appreciate a link to any parts you have sourced and think fit better.

TOH
orry, the best I can do here is to say that Tractor Land
in Onamia MN may or may not be willing to mail parts. Nice knowledgeable folks, but not a web based mail order house. The website is up, but not up to date.

It is more than shrinkage allowance. I am not a foundryman, but I have worked on casting development on a number of parts over the years, as well as fitting some reverse engineered parts, so I have some background here. These parts were redesigned, possibly to simplify the patterns, and the pattern maker wasn't paying enough attention to space claim. Even a simple replacement part can cost over $20,000 to set up and make the first part. Getting it right the first time is important.

Since I wanted to check the leather back up ring orientation, I had an opportunity to compare the cylinders and take pictures. I was able to tease the leather ring out of the groove and turn it around without having to wet it a second time.

The old and new lift cylinders look like this with the old cylinder sitting on top of the new one. There are bolts through the mounting holes to line them up:
mvphoto108229.jpg

I thought that the divot on the open end for the 8N looked too small until I lined them up. The shorter nose on the new casting just needs less material removed to clear the linkage. The front end, as you can see is longer. I traced the footprints on a piece of paper with the front end of each butted up against the square. The distance from the mounting holes to the line marked end of cylinder is different by around 3/8".
mvphoto108230.jpg

Both cylinders were traced with the front end against the square as shown. The distance between the mounting holes and the end of the cylinder is larger than it appears in the picture.
mvphoto108231.jpg
 
If I had known you were going to Tractorland
I would have asked you to say hello to Alex
for me.
I grew up and still own property about 35
miles north of there. Pass by his place every
time I go up.
Am going up next Friday to do some mowing and
on Saturday there is a memorial for a
classmate of mine who recently passed away.
Agree that Alex knows his stuff when it comes
to the old Fords.
 

The manufacturers in that foreign land are not the ones deciding what to make and where to sell it.

Not made right??

Blame goes to the importer buying junk because they want more profit.
 

Seems like a minimal amount of grinding.

If I was making them, and had this feedback, I would just do the grinding before painting... and add a tiny bit to my price.

It's a little unfair to compare an aftermarket reseller to a high quality "boutique shop" like Tractorland.

It's like comparing motorcycle parts from AutoZone to Orange County Choppers.

I have plenty of critiques of parts, and anything from overseas... but I also realize that labor from China has fueled our material prosperity over the last thirty years.

If any of us has a sizeable retirement account, it's because it was invested in companies that produced things cheaply over there and profited from selling it over here.

We've invested ourselves out of our jobs... and what remains are little boutique shops that can remind a few of us, who have the time and money, of what it was like to buy American made stuff... the rest of us adapt and grind where needed. :)
 
Some thoughts about Tractorland...
Alex spent his working years as a
superintendent for a big construction
company. Retired maybe 25? years ago. He and
he and his wife built a Ma & Pa Ford tractor
dealership. They sell new and used parts and
implements, do repairs and give good, free
advice along a major highway in central MN.
Alex just always liked the Ns and got into
them before restoring them became all the
rage.
In addition to their home they have a large
shop/sales building and another very large
pole barn with their own private collection
of Ford tractors and implements.
Tractorland knows and Has a lot about these
little tractors.
Just real nice people who followed their
dream but are now getting up there in years.
Both are in their mid 80s now.
His wife, dunno her name - I always just call
her Grandma, knows more about these tractors
than many of the gurus here and can converse,
give advice, look up parts and give the
history of these Fords.
Boutique? Maybe. But I would call their place
an emporium.
They do sell the same new Chinese parts as
every other seller but they would be able to
tell you that you'll need to do a bit of
grinding on a new lift cylinder and you could
likely buy the cylinder from them and have
them grind it for you - for an additional
charge of course.
They're nice people, good salt of the earth
types.
I used to stop there more - when I had Ns and
a couple of Hundreds but now days I am more
interested in the 3 cylinder Fords and their
specialty is primarily in the 1939 - 1964
models.
I am going up to our property this weekend
and will go right by there. Normally I just
wave but I'm thinking it is time to stop and
say hello.
 
Sounds like a good business model, combined with a good personal model of doing business.

Honestly, I'm not sure why it isn't more adopted.

If you can save money on buying imported parts; why not add value with expert advice?

Seems like they figured that out, and they are prospering.

We have a local shop that is similar, it's a family business with multiple generations. They were originally a Ford/New Holland franchise. But similar to what TOH is talking about, they lost support from the OEM end.

To survive, they had to take on a couple of other franchises, for instance, now they sell Kubota tractors and some other brands of implements.

And... they have had to prioritize... for instance, they don't support new N parts anymore, too much competition from online sales, imported parts, etc. But, they still maintain a boneyard that one of the family members has personally walked me through at 4PM on a Saturday afternoon; when my baler went down. Out there, they have remnants of old NH stuff. Ancient Ford stuff... They still have some old N skeletons out there.

They have also had to get creative. Went there for paddles for my NH 155 elevator. The NH parts system says "Not Available"...until the guy at the counter goes in the back to talk to one of the family members... and comes back with four paddles that they are sourcing from a local Amish/Mennonite workshop.

Gives me hope.
 
As for N-tractor hydraulics?

This post is one of the reasons that I live with our 2N's leaky hydraulics. Getting into fixing it would take me into territory that I don't have any local expertise for help.

Seating leather seals?

Knowing where to grind the aftermarket part BEFORE I beat up my tractor trying to install it?

No local expertise on that.

If Tractorland was within my driving radius, you bet I'd be there.
 
(quoted from post at 06:32:22 08/08/23)
[b:127667a656][color=red:127667a656]They do sell the same new Chinese parts as
every other seller but they would be able to
tell you that you'll need to do a bit of
grinding on a new lift cylinder and you could
likely buy the cylinder from them and have
them grind it for you - for an additional
charge of course.[/color:127667a656][/b:127667a656]
They're nice people, good salt of the earth
types.

That would have been my guess.

TOH
 
You have a 2N?
When I inherited my 2N the lift would drift
down pretty quickly.
So with my FO-4 in hand and this board for
backup I pulled the lift cover to replace the
piston seals.
Just like pulling the left trumpet and
differential - to get at those lower lift arm
pins, it sounds kinda scary but both are Very
simple procedures.
And one thing about the 9/2s is they didn't
have position control so you need not go
through all of the adjustments and cam
follower pin replacement which can be a pia.
 
PS
If you are REALLY adverse to cheap china parts and having to grind one...
You could have your old cylinder sleeved back to original specs - just like they do with piston sleeves in an engine.
I find myself doing things like that more and more just to avoid buying ill fitting or too expensive parts.
I made these special washers for my friend's Ford tractor yesterday.
New Holland wanted $14 apiece for them.
I charged him coffee and doughnuts.
I copied the one on the right.


cvphoto160435.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 07:38:02 08/08/23) You have a 2N?
When I inherited my 2N the lift would drift
down pretty quickly.
So with my FO-4 in hand and this board for
backup I pulled the lift cover to replace the
piston seals.
Just like pulling the left trumpet and
differential - to get at those lower lift arm
pins, it sounds kinda scary but both are Very
simple procedures.
And one thing about the 9/2s is they didn't
have position control so you need not go
through all of the adjustments and cam
follower pin replacement which can be a pia.

Thanks for the advice and the vote of confidence.

At the moment, I'm going to have to put that off, knowing that I'm sure the people here could talk me through it.

The 2N is a victim of its own utility. It's still extremely useful with leaky hydraulics.
 

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