B414 diesel starter problem

[kertel77]

Hello I'm new here. I'm a 62yo lady trying to keep things running since my husband passed. He taught me a lot so I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty.
I have a 1962 B414 diesel with the lever start and it's getting really hard to start Sometimes i mash the lever all the way down and it does nothing. Sometimes it does start but I have to mash the lever all the way down and it didn't used to be that way.
I've read a lot on here and I can tell you guys are knowledgeable. I don't know if it's original or been converted to a starter with a solenoid. I'm attaching some pics, hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. It has a new battery. I don't know if it needs a starter or not.
thank you in advance!

 

[used red MN]

Hello kertel77, welcome to YT! Your starter may just need the switch the starter the mechanical lever connects to replaced. There may be more tricks to it. But for right now I would suggest you go in your first post that is duplicate and use the Edit button and take out all the wording in there including the title and just leave an Oops in there may have to be in both the title area and the subject section. I think you can take the pictures out as well on a PC. To edit on a phone click the 3 dots to the right of Report at the bottom left. If you do this it will cut down on confusion when answers are given in 2 different places.

 

[kertel77]

Thank you, I wondered if I double posted.
So what is that switch called?

 

[used red MN]

Thank you, I wondered if I double posted.
So what is that switch called?

Just glancing at your photo before I missed that the configuration you have is different from how I originally thought it was equipped. However, my comment still applies.
Messicks IH B414 parts catalog In this link(underlined) go to Category 06 Electrical, Diagram 068 Cranking Motor. This is that companies “modified” manufactures (Fiat/CNHI/CaseIH) parts catalog. Look at key 2 where it shows a picture. Not showing a cart at the lower right of the frame indicates it is no longer available from the manufacturer. (As opposed to part 3 the rubber cover, wow look at the price on that!)
The part number in red 81712538 below the picture is a superseded (updated) PN from the original number. A search for the number above shows it as available from the parent company of these forums All States Ag Parts, see link. ASAP part
I could explain a test process to assure that this is for sure the problem. It would require a 12 volt automotive test light or a multimeter; and to do it safely a 2nd person.

 

[Little Fred]

You may be able to loosen the 4 screws and move the switch towards the lever so that it engages better. But you should get an owners manual that should explain it better. You don't want the starter pinion spinning before it is engaged with the flywheel gear.

 

[abuelo]

Sorry to hear of your husbands passing. Electric connections all need to be bright and tight. Load test the battery or battery charger on to make sure you have a good battery .A test light would be helpful ~~ I only have an oops degree in 12 volt so not much help. Please post results.

 

[JimB2]

Hi @kertel77, welcome to YT, I have spent many hours in the seat of an IH B414D and have overhauled the starter about 60 years ago.
My Dad bought one of the first B414Ds in Canada in late 1961 and it wasn't delivered until April of 1962 and we put approximately 15K Hrs on it before he traded in 1972 for an IH 454.
B414D starters are more difficult to trouble shoot than the standard starter with the solenoid on top of the starter, several owners of B414D's upgraded the starter to the newer version used on the later IH 434, 444, 384 tractors with the onboard solenoid but it required replacing the Ignition switch with one from the gasoline B414 or from 434, 444, 384 models. These newer starters were about 50% of the cost of the original replacement starter. See link below to newer version starter on the YT site.
Link: https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/704447R95_Starter_17137.htm

A question, does the Hour meter work? How many hours? Are you in USA or Canada?
If your tractor has a lot of hours on it the starter may require cleaning if it is turning slowly. The brushes on the front of the starter wear and carbon dust from the brushes gets into the front bushing of the armature shaft and causes binding and slow turning of the starter motor.

Here is trouble shooting the starter method BUT MAKE SURE TRACTOR IS IN NEUTRAL, PARKING BRAKE ON AND WHEELS CHOCKED AND STOP KNOB HELD IN STOP POSITION with vise grips on the rod.

1) Do not push the starter lever down, take a screwdriver and for 5 seconds short the the connectors together on the switch on top of the starter in front of the rubber boot by the starter lever, the starter should spin but not engage into the flywheel and not turn the engine over, repeat a few times to check that the starter spins each time.
2) Push the starter lever down, take a screwdriver and for 15 seconds short the the connectors together on the switch on top of the starter in front of the rubber boot by the starter lever, the starter should spin and will be engaged into the flywheel and turn the engine over, repeat a few times to check that the starter spins the engine over everytime.

This will indicate, if the problem is that the switch on top of the starter is not engaging or if the starter solenoid is failing or if the starter motor could be a problem.

Please report back the results of the tests.

Do you have B414D Operators, parts and repair manuals?

 

[kertel77]

Hi @kertel77, welcome to YT, I have spent many hours in the seat of an IH B414D and have overhauled the starter about 60 years ago.
My Dad bought one of the first B414Ds in Canada in late 1961 and it wasn't delivered until April of 1962 and we put approximately 15K Hrs on it before he traded in 1972 for an IH 454.
B414D starters are more difficult to trouble shoot than the standard starter with the solenoid on top of the starter, several owners of B414D's upgraded the starter to the newer version used on the later IH 434, 444, 384 tractors with the onboard solenoid but it required replacing the Ignition switch with one from the gasoline B414 or from 434, 444, 384 models. These newer starters were about 50% of the cost of the original replacement starter. See link below to newer version starter on the YT site.
Link: https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/704447R95_Starter_17137.htm

A question, does the Hour meter work? How many hours? Are you in USA or Canada?
If your tractor has a lot of hours on it the starter may require cleaning if it is turning slowly. The brushes on the front of the starter wear and carbon dust from the brushes gets into the front bushing of the armature shaft and causes binding and slow turning of the starter motor.

Here is trouble shooting the starter method BUT MAKE SURE TRACTOR IS IN NEUTRAL, PARKING BRAKE ON AND WHEELS CHOCKED AND STOP KNOB HELD IN STOP POSITION with vise grips on the rod.

1) Do not push the starter lever down, take a screwdriver and for 5 seconds short the the connectors together on the switch on top of the starter in front of the rubber boot by the starter lever, the starter should spin but not engage into the flywheel and not turn the engine over, repeat a few times to check that the starter spins each time.
2) Push the starter lever down, take a screwdriver and for 15 seconds short the the connectors together on the switch on top of the starter in front of the rubber boot by the starter lever, the starter should spin and will be engaged into the flywheel and turn the engine over, repeat a few times to check that the starter spins the engine over everytime.

This will indicate, if the problem is that the switch on top of the starter is not engaging or if the starter solenoid is failing or if the starter motor could be a problem.

Please report back the results of the tests.

Do you have B414D Operators, parts and repair manuals?

Lots of good advice, you guys are awesome! yes, the hours show about 3000. I live in the USA. I do have a parts manual we bought, but not the original one. Today was a long work day but tomorrow I'll have time to work on it, I'll let you know !

 

[kertel77]

Just glancing at your photo before I missed that the configuration you have is different from how I originally thought it was equipped. However, my comment still applies.
Messicks IH B414 parts catalog In this link(underlined) go to Category 06 Electrical, Diagram 068 Cranking Motor. This is that companies “modified” manufactures (Fiat/CNHI/CaseIH) parts catalog. Look at key 2 where it shows a picture. Not showing a cart at the lower right of the frame indicates it is no longer available from the manufacturer. (As opposed to part 3 the rubber cover, wow look at the price on that!)
The part number in red 81712538 below the picture is a superseded (updated) PN from the original number. A search for the number above shows it as available from the parent company of these forums All States Ag Parts, see link. ASAP part
I could explain a test process to assure that this is for sure the problem. It would require a 12 volt automotive test light or a multimeter; and to do it safely a 2nd person.

Thank you! I do have a multimeter and I have friend that can help me.

 

[JimB2]

Hi 3,000 hrs is nothing on those tractors unless the Hour meter has rolled over 10,000 and it is really 13,000 Hrs but it looks in good shape so probably 3,000 Hrs.

Most likely problem is the Switch in the photo below with the RED arrow pointing to it. Make sure the switch mounting bracket is standing straight up on the starter, not bent forwards and leaning to the front of the starter. The switch part number is 705383R91 which is a common switch used as a clutch neutral safety switch in the newer tractors.

 

[used red MN]

Hi 3,000 hrs is nothing on those tractors unless the Hour meter has rolled over 10,000 and it is really 13,000 Hrs but it looks in good shape so probably 3,000 Hrs.

Most likely problem is the Switch in the photo below with the RED arrow pointing to it. Make sure the switch mounting bracket is standing straight up on the starter, not bent forwards and leaning to the front of the starter. The switch part number is 705383R91 which is a common switch used as a clutch neutral safety switch in the newer tractors.

View attachment 78285

Jim do you think the info in my reply 4 is incorrect? The number shown there by Messicks I think is a sub for the number you gave. I directed the OP to a switch from ASAP. I am going to attempt to explain checking the switch in another reply.

 

[used red MN]

Thank you! I do have a multimeter and I have friend that can help me.

Set the meter to read DC voltage. Click the black lead to some metal part of the tractor. The grounding battery terminal that go to the frame
would be best.Test your meter over to the positive cable and see if your meter shows voltage. Have you helper turn on the key. One of the terminals on that switch with the hex on it, one or the other should have power. Test the opposite terminal, when your helper holds down the clutch and pushes the start lever. If it shows voltage on the other terminal it should be cranking the engine. If there it voltage on both sides, but the starter is not cranking the problem is in the starter solenoid.

 

[caterpillar guy]

I would not want to change that starter for one with a solenoid. Since all that is probably needed is the switch on top of the starter and the lever makes for an always positive engagement of the starter gear with little trouble for the starter gear or the flywheel. I would suspect the contacts are just worn down from use and if built back up or maybe adjusted it would work fine again.

 

[JimB2]

Jim do you think the info in my reply 4 is incorrect? The number shown there by Messicks I think is a sub for the number you gave. I directed the OP to a switch from ASAP. I am going to attempt to explain checking the switch in another reply.

@used red MN , the parts manual I use is BT-2C, McCormick International B-414 Tractor Diesel and Petrol Models, International Harvester Company of Great Britain Limited, 259 City Road, London, E.C.1, no published date. I take the p/n from it and then Google it and see what appears.
You are correct if you Google p/n 705383R91, one of the replacement parts is the Neutral Safety Switch p/n 81712538 that you referenced.

Now to address @caterpillar guy concerning replacement starter with one with solenoid on top not requiring the Push Lever, my info is from our local IH Dealer going back to the late 1960s and way before after market parts were available. This is the info we were told by the local IH Parts man at that time, when the IH 434 model was released with the starter with the solenoid on it and using an Ignition Switch with OFF-ON-HEAT-START they stopped stocking the Lucas Starter with the manual engagement lever and replaced it with the equivalent Delco model with the solenoid on top as it was less than 50% of the price of the Lucas starter. The upgrade consisted of the Delco starter plus the Ignition switch from the 434 model and a couple lengths of wire with spade connectors on it to install the Ignition switch and the Start wire to the solenoid. On the existing solenoid on the front of the battery box, you disconnected the large power cable from the starter and put it on the same bolt on the solenoid as the power cable from the battery post. Then IH Dealer had to only stock one starter for B250 thru 384 tractors.
In Canada most Starter/Generator/Alternator repair shops carried parts for Lucas Starters/Generators/Alternators and Voltage Regulators as they were very common with IH, MF, David Brown and some British imported cars. I rebuilt the starter and generator once on the B414D that Dad had and got the rebuild parts, brushes and bushings from IH Dealer. I can't remember if they were IH parts or if the local IH sourced them from a local Starter/Generator shop.

 

[kertel77]

Hi 3,000 hrs is nothing on those tractors unless the Hour meter has rolled over 10,000 and it is really 13,000 Hrs but it looks in good shape so probably 3,000 Hrs.

Most likely problem is the Switch in the photo below with the RED arrow pointing to it. Make sure the switch mounting bracket is standing straight up on the starter, not bent forwards and leaning to the front of the starter. The switch part number is 705383R91 which is a common switch used as a clutch neutral safety switch in the newer tractors.

View attachment 78285

sorry it was a crazy work week and i'm just getting back to this. I pulled that switch off and followed Used red MN links. Messicks says it's discontinued. ASAP parts has it if I follow his link but it doesn't say it fits a B414 but it's similar. I wish I knew how to reply to both of you at the same time.

Neutral Safety Switch fits International 454 574 81712538 fits Ford 81712538 fits Case IH 395 485 495 585 595 685 695 785 795 884 885 895 995 81712538

Neutral Safety Switch for Case IH Tractor(s) 258, 395, 485, 485XL, 495, 495XL, 585, 585XL, 595, 595XL, 685, 685XL, 695, 695XL, 785. Replaces Case IH OEM Number(s) 81712538, E1ADDN11500, 3072122R94, 3114409R92, 705383R91.

www.partsasap.com

my switch pics

 

[JimB2]

sorry it was a crazy work week and i'm just getting back to this. I pulled that switch off and followed Used red MN links. Messicks says it's discontinued. ASAP parts has it if I follow his link but it doesn't say it fits a B414 but it's similar. I wish I knew how to reply to both of you at the same time.

Neutral Safety Switch fits International 454 574 81712538 fits Ford 81712538 fits Case IH 395 485 495 585 595 685 695 785 795 884 885 895 995 81712538

Neutral Safety Switch for Case IH Tractor(s) 258, 395, 485, 485XL, 495, 495XL, 585, 585XL, 595, 595XL, 685, 685XL, 695, 695XL, 785. Replaces Case IH OEM Number(s) 81712538, E1ADDN11500, 3072122R94, 3114409R92, 705383R91.

www.partsasap.com

my switch pics

I believe that ASAP parts are saying it doesn’t fit B414D because the B414 never had a clutch neutral safety switch, the safety switch was not required until later models like 444 and 384 tractors.
According to the part number from my very old B414 parts manual it cross references to 81712538 number.
But on your B414 that switch is used in the starter to engage the starter solenoid that is mounted on the firewall in front of the battery box.

 

[kertel77]

I believe that ASAP parts are saying it doesn’t fit B414D because the B414 never had a clutch neutral safety switch, the safety switch was not required until later models like 444 and 384 tractors.
According to the part number from my very old B414 parts manual it cross references to 81712538 number.
But on your B414 that switch is used in the starter to engage the starter solenoid that is mounted on the firewall in front of the battery box.

ok thank you. it's mounted on the starter, not on the firewall. like your pic. The lever starter arm engages it directly. I went ahead and ordered one. I'm going to super clean all the contacts and wait for the part. I'm sure it's the original lucas starter. It's still a positive ground and I don't see where it's been converted to a solenoid starter.
Weird thing is, it has a keyhole but we've never had a key. I just engage the lever to start it, and pull the fuel shut off stick to shut it down.

 

[used red MN]

wish I knew how to reply to both of you at the same time.

From the way I look at it you have replied to both of us and actually anyone who is a member viewing this post. Typing the “@“ before a user name as JimB did sends them a email alert about the post if they have that selected in their profile. I don’t know about JimB or others but I am on these forums nearly every single day, if not I for sure check it about every 3 days. I use the internal alert system which is the ‘bell’ at the top to show me activity in post I have participated in. Hope this gets your tractor back to starting as it should.

 

[JimB2]

ok thank you. it's mounted on the starter, not on the firewall. like your pic. The lever starter arm engages it directly. I went ahead and ordered one. I'm going to super clean all the contacts and wait for the part. I'm sure it's the original lucas starter. It's still a positive ground and I don't see where it's been converted to a solenoid starter.
Weird thing is, it has a keyhole but we've never had a key. I just engage the lever to start it, and pull the fuel shut off stick to shut it down.

I confused you on my last post, the switch you are going to replace energies the starter solenoid on the firewall that supplies the battery voltage to the starter.
The Key switch on a Diesel had only one function and I have forgot what it was.

 

[used red MN]

I confused you on my last post, the switch you are going to replace energies the starter solenoid on the firewall that supplies the battery voltage to the starter.
The Key switch on a Diesel had only one function and I have forgot what it was.

May just energize the fuel gauge.