Back after a lot of poking and prodding, 2n sleeves loose

[William S]

I have a 1945 2n serial # 158xxx, 12v and I am trying to complete a rebuild of this tractor and have many issues with the machine shop. I recently had to return the oil pump and have the shop re-do it's work and now it seems to be working fine. As I didn't have all the measuring tools to do the job and he did. Then I had to remove the engine once more when I noticed none of the nuts on the main bearings and connecting rods had cotter pins or safety wire installed. I also replaced the front and rear seal because they were cut too short and there was not enough sealant on the ends of the rope seals. I also replaced all the cylinder head studs and nuts along with the head gasket with copper gasket spray. While I was there I put the oil slinger and camshaft locking ring. ( Thanks to those who helped me identify the correct ones to use) Then correctly installed the water pump.
So before I installed the head back on I manually rotated the engine via the hand crank and noticed that No.s 2 & 3 cylinder sleeves moved in and out of there cylinder, before they fell out I pushed them back into the block. Can I repair this without removing the engine again? Or is this going to require the engine being split once more? Out of frustration I bolted the head on as the gasket was sprayed already and it kept me from looking for a sledge hammer until I cooled off a bit. Thinking all I needed was one person to do his job correctly and that's not what I have. So after almost two weeks of doctors and tests I now am back at the task of getting this tractor back in running shape before I lose one more season of work that is not going away.
So the cylinder sleeves any suggestions?

Just a side bar on the pictures below, in the second picture of the 9n/2/ wiring drawing by JMOR, why would a person leave the better part of the electrical system energized? As I see that the positive is connect straight from the cut-out relay to the resistor block energizing anything connected to it 100% of the time. Hopefully there is a switch of some sort keeping this energy from frying something out.
I noticed this when I installed a new oil pressure gauge and it had a light in the dial. Not knowing where to properly install this light I connected it to the bottom post of the resistor block and it would be on 100% of the time, so I just omitted the light all together. In retrospect I believe it should have gone to the light switch. But this didn't answer the question of Why leave a hot wire thru the ammeter to the alternator. I now see that this should be a second post.

Thank You for your time spent helping me get through this., William

 

[William S]

Just a additional note:
the sleeves are 0.090 sleeves

 

[rustred]

I have a 1945 2n serial # 158xxx, 12v and I am trying to complete a rebuild of this tractor and have many issues with the machine shop. I recently had to return the oil pump and have the shop re-do it's work and now it seems to be working fine. As I didn't have all the measuring tools to do the job and he did. Then I had to remove the engine once more when I noticed none of the nuts on the main bearings and connecting rods had cotter pins or safety wire installed. I also replaced the front and rear seal because they were cut too short and there was not enough sealant on the ends of the rope seals. I also replaced all the cylinder head studs and nuts along with the head gasket with copper gasket spray. While I was there I put the oil slinger and camshaft locking ring. ( Thanks to those who helped me identify the correct ones to use) Then correctly installed the water pump.
So before I installed the head back on I manually rotated the engine via the hand crank and noticed that No.s 2 & 3 cylinder sleeves moved in and out of there cylinder, before they fell out I pushed them back into the block. Can I repair this without removing the engine again? Or is this going to require the engine being split once more? Out of frustration I bolted the head on as the gasket was sprayed already and it kept me from looking for a sledge hammer until I cooled off a bit. Thinking all I needed was one person to do his job correctly and that's not what I have. So after almost two weeks of doctors and tests I now am back at the task of getting this tractor back in running shape before I lose one more season of work that is not going away.
So the cylinder sleeves any suggestions?

Just a side bar on the pictures below, in the second picture of the 9n/2/ wiring drawing by JMOR, why would a person leave the better part of the electrical system energized? As I see that the positive is connect straight from the cut-out relay to the resistor block energizing anything connected to it 100% of the time. Hopefully there is a switch of some sort keeping this energy from frying something out.
I noticed this when I installed a new oil pressure gauge and it had a light in the dial. Not knowing where to properly install this light I connected it to the bottom post of the resistor block and it would be on 100% of the time, so I just omitted the light all together. In retrospect I believe it should have gone to the light switch. But this didn't answer the question of Why leave a hot wire thru the ammeter to the alternator. I now see that this should be a second post.

Thank You for your time spent helping me get through this., William


View attachment 111864

I have a saying … good help is hard to find. And if them sleeves are that loose that they are coming up with the pistons that is not a hood sign. Did they make them sleeves or are they factory made ones. It’s not the normal thing to do to glue them in as you need heat transfer from them into the block. Unless a person used locktite on the lower half of them. U don’t want anything up higher for sure where all the heat is. Just how loose are they without the pistons ? Are they moveable up and down with your fist. ? My advice is not really what I would do but sometime gotta make do. No guarantee here. Is there a lip at the top of the sleeve to keep it from dropping ?

 

[William S]

Well, they seemed to move up pretty easily as I was hand cranking it and that is probably something I should not do. Pushing them down was no display of strength and the two did come right back up when I cranked the engine one more time. I didn't try to pull them out for obvious reasons.
They never had the opportunity to get hot, did not get that far yet. I hear the lip can bust off iffen it had a mind to and then all bets are off.
When cranking the engine I get no more than a 1/3 to a 1/2 turn at best and They did say they bought them, so go figure, I'm actually surprised they didn't use the old ones as they were still in and didn't look too bad, lol. I guess it's a good thing I noticed it now, rather than later.

What I figure is : pull the engine one more time and haul it back to the shop for him to redo , seems a bit out of my range otherwise. I need to go talk to him one more time, as a friend once told "there is always Facebook ya know." he is a clown sometimes. Here we go.......

 

[used red MN]

Why leave a hot wire thru the ammeter to the alternator.

That is just the way it is done and if the wiring is correct and maintained properly harms nothing. This configuration was used on the majority of tractors, industrial machines, cars and trucks. Most light systems operate whether the engine is running or not, the lights are a major electrical system load so they need to be monitored by the ammeter. That dictates that the ammeter is always powered. In the case of the charging system, particularly with alternator equipped systems that can push fairly high amps, placing switch contacts in that circuit can be a point of failure. Also, this charge current needs monitored by the ammeter, again another reason to just keep those circuits constantly live. Doing this harms nothing, refer to first sentence.

 

[William S]

That is just the way it is done and if the wiring is correct and maintained properly harms nothing. This configuration was used on the majority of tractors, industrial machines, cars and trucks. Most light systems operate whether the engine is running or not, the lights are a major electrical system load so they need to be monitored by the ammeter. That dictates that the ammeter is always powered. In the case of the charging system, particularly with alternator equipped systems that can push fairly high amps, placing switch contacts in that circuit can be a point of failure. Also, this charge current needs monitored by the ammeter, again another reason to just keep those circuits constantly live. Doing this harms nothing, refer to first sentence.

that's good to know. it just seemed odd to have current running in two directions on the same wire. I never noticed much of a difference in the ammeter reading when the lights were off or on. I guess that means all is working as should be.

 

[ChrisFromCLE]

…I noticed this when I installed a new oil pressure gauge and it had a light in the dial. Not knowing where to properly install this light I connected it to the bottom post of the resistor block and it would be on 100% of the time, so I just omitted the light all together. In retrospect I believe it should have gone to the light switch. …

Yes. Connect to the BLK/GRN terminal of the light switch.

No power flows anywhere until there is a connection to ground allowing current to flow back to the battery. “Hot” to the device with “ground” made at the device is the standard way of wiring all types of vehicles. This eliminates the need for return wires to the battery from every light, relay, etc. The ammeter is not “ON” until a connection from something (in this case anything) is made to ground.

Chris from CLE

 

[Non-farmer]

You have a 12 volt system. It does not use the cutout. The alternator has the equivalent internally. Remove the wires to the cutout, and, I'd remove the cutout itself.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have a 1945 2n serial # 158xxx, 12v and I am trying to complete a rebuild of this tractor and have many issues with the machine shop. I recently had to return the oil pump and have the shop re-do it's work and now it seems to be working fine. As I didn't have all the measuring tools to do the job and he did. Then I had to remove the engine once more when I noticed none of the nuts on the main bearings and connecting rods had cotter pins or safety wire installed. I also replaced the front and rear seal because they were cut too short and there was not enough sealant on the ends of the rope seals. I also replaced all the cylinder head studs and nuts along with the head gasket with copper gasket spray. While I was there I put the oil slinger and camshaft locking ring. ( Thanks to those who helped me identify the correct ones to use) Then correctly installed the water pump.
So before I installed the head back on I manually rotated the engine via the hand crank and noticed that No.s 2 & 3 cylinder sleeves moved in and out of there cylinder, before they fell out I pushed them back into the block. Can I repair this without removing the engine again? Or is this going to require the engine being split once more? Out of frustration I bolted the head on as the gasket was sprayed already and it kept me from looking for a sledge hammer until I cooled off a bit. Thinking all I needed was one person to do his job correctly and that's not what I have. So after almost two weeks of doctors and tests I now am back at the task of getting this tractor back in running shape before I lose one more season of work that is not going away.
So the cylinder sleeves any suggestions?

Just a side bar on the pictures below, in the second picture of the 9n/2/ wiring drawing by JMOR, why would a person leave the better part of the electrical system energized? As I see that the positive is connect straight from the cut-out relay to the resistor block energizing anything connected to it 100% of the time. Hopefully there is a switch of some sort keeping this energy from frying something out.
I noticed this when I installed a new oil pressure gauge and it had a light in the dial. Not knowing where to properly install this light I connected it to the bottom post of the resistor block and it would be on 100% of the time, so I just omitted the light all together. In retrospect I believe it should have gone to the light switch. But this didn't answer the question of Why leave a hot wire thru the ammeter to the alternator. I now see that this should be a second post.

Thank You for your time spent helping me get through this., William


View attachment 111864

Secure your sleeves with any good sleeve retaining compound. Its an industry standard practice..

You dont want or need to coat the entire sleeve. In your case just put a 1" wide band around the bottom of the block bore and another 1" wide band around the top of the sleeve. Assemble as usual. Don't screw it up because removal wont be easy once the compound cures and it cures fast.

TOH

 

[teddy52food]

I bored many of those blocks for the .090 sleeves. I would take it back to the shop & insist they put in a repair sleeve & do it right. Even with sleeve locker it will most likely break off the flange & lose the sleeve. Also they will run hotter than they should. If I remember right they need about 1 to2 thousands press fit.

 

[TheOldHokie]

People like to speculate with lots of "probablies". Here is a simple fact:

The shear strength of Loctite 640 is 3190 pounds per square inch. A one inch wide band top and bottom of a sleeve is equivalent to a 30 ton press fit.

Those sleeves are going nowhere. Ask anyone thats ever tried to remove one...

TOH

 

[William S]

Secure your sleeves with any good sleeve retaining compound. Its an industry standard practice..

You dont want or need to coat the entire sleeve. In your case just put a 1" wide band around the bottom of the block bore and another 1" wide band around the top of the sleeve. Assemble as usual. Don't screw it up because removal wont be easy once the compound cures and it cures fast.

TOH

Well it is good to know I have options. I just have to consider the 'don't screw up' part. As I was hoping that I would be able to do the process without removing the cylinder. Then I checked the adhesive instructions and saw the 'keep the sight clean and oil free' notice. Huh, that maybe the tricky part of adhesives and sleeves. I am going back to the machine shop tomorrow, iffin my misses lets me as the chores are backing up round here. LOL! Thank You , William

 

[TheOldHokie]

Well it is good to know I have options. I just have to consider the 'don't screw up' part. As I was hoping that I would be able to do the process without removing the cylinder. Then I checked the adhesive instructions and saw the 'keep the sight clean and oil free' notice. Huh, that maybe the tricky part of adhesives and sleeves. I am going back to the machine shop tomorrow, iffin my misses lets me aspu the chores are backing up round here. LOL! Thank You , William

Not tricky at all. Remove the sleeves, wipe block bore and sleeves down with spray brake cleaner and proceed.

TOH

 

[William S]

I bored many of those blocks for the .090 sleeves. I would take it back to the shop & insist they put in a repair sleeve & do it right. Even with sleeve locker it will most likely break off the flange & lose the sleeve. Also they will run hotter than they should. If I remember right they need about 1 to2 thousands press fit.

I'm going back to the shop tomorrow, without the motor and let's see if we can come to some sort of plan to correct the things I found that are not correctly done.
My father always said 'if you can't say something nice about a person it is best to not say anything at all." Coming from a man who married a woman with 7 children at home and 2 other in and about that is a pretty good guide to go by.

 

[William S]

People like to speculate with lots of "probablies". Here is a simple fact:

The shear strength of Loctite 640 is 3190 pounds per square inch. A one inch wide band top and bottom of a sleeve is equivalent to a 30 ton press fit.

Those sleeves are going nowhere. Ask anyone thats ever tried to remove one...

TOH

I believe you, have no doubt about the veracity of your statement. Far be it for me to impune anything that is offered here. Just when I think I have something down pat, something comes along and blows that out of the water. Like my recent light bulb to light up; I don't know that the radiator fan actually blows the air forward back thru the radiator, although the reason for this is still muddy in my mind, the concept is is there to keep in mind for future edification.
William

 

[William S]

Not tricky at all. Remove the sleeves, wipe block bore and sleeves down with spray brake cleaner and proceed.

TOH

I realize this and knowing me and my surroundings sometimes things don't go a planned. Just need to close the doors and put a sign up, " warning something important going on inside of this garage. Enter at your own risk." Yes I know how to split the tractor , after doing that task at least 3 times in the past 6 months or so. So first I'll talk to machinist and see what comes of that. Then go forth as the situation dictates. I do appreciate all the help here, to be forewarned is to be forearmed and I'll know when something doesn't sound quite right.

William

 

[William S]

Not tricky at all. Remove the sleeves, wipe block bore and sleeves down with spray brake cleaner and proceed.

TOH

I realize this and knowing me and my surroundings sometimes things don't go a planned. Just need to close the doors and put a sign up, " warning something important going on inside of this garage. Enter at your own risk." Yes I know how to split the tractor , after doing that task at least 3 times in the past 6 months or so. So first I'll talk to machinist and see what comes of that. Then go forth as the situation dictates. I do appreciate all the help here, to be forewarned is to be forearmed and I'll know when something doesn't sound quite right.

William

You have a 12 volt system. It does not use the cutout. The alternator has the equivalent internally. Remove the wires to the cutout, and, I'd remove the cutout itself.

I don't think I have a cut out relay as I only have the push button in front of the shifter stick and the other part under the battery tray. Yes it is a 12v system

W

 

[William S]

I bored many of those blocks for the .090 sleeves. I would take it back to the shop & insist they put in a repair sleeve & do it right. Even with sleeve locker it will most likely break off the flange & lose the sleeve. Also they will run hotter than they should. If I remember right they need about 1 to2 thousands press fit.

I know they were 0.090 to start with and the shop said they installed new 0.090 sleeves. One of the few parts they had to obtain to get the job done.
Tomorrow is coming fast, boy does time fly by when chores start backing up.
W

 

[Non-farmer]

I don't think I have a cut out relay as I only have the push button in front of the shifter stick and the other part under the battery tray. Yes it is a 12v system

W

My bad, I misunderstood your post. You were referring to the wiring diagram, not your tractor.

 

[teddy52food]

I know they were 0.090 to start with and the shop said they installed new 0.090 sleeves. One of the few parts they had to obtain to get the job done.
Tomorrow is coming fast, boy does time fly by when chores start backing up.
W

My bad as I didn't know that your shop didn't bore it.