Back after a lot of poking and prodding, 2n sleeves loose

[showcrop]

Safety wiring, pal nuts, cotter pins on nuts, is WWII technology. no self respecting shop uses any of that stuff in the last forty years. There is no measureable standard for the "dab" of silicone on the seal end any more than there is for proper seal protrusion. As TOH posted, sleeve glue is just a common use product in today's world, and some brands advertise enhanced heat transfer, and the sleeves are often held down just by proper placement of the gasket. While copper gasket spray may be popular it is still rarely used since gasket manufacturers recommend against it. If I owned the shop I would hire a security company to get pictures of you and have a guard on watch to watch for you and turn off the lights and put a closed sign on the door when they see you coming. I would then cut my losses by offering to PAY YOU standard amounts for all work done for you and any parts/supplies used on your motor and ask you to please never come back.

 

[William S]

Yes. Connect to the BLK/GRN terminal of the light switch.

No power flows anywhere until there is a connection to ground allowing current to flow back to the battery. “Hot” to the device with “ground” made at the device is the standard way of wiring all types of vehicles. This eliminates the need for return wires to the battery from every light, relay, etc. The ammeter is not “ON” until a connection from something (in this case anything) is made to ground.

Chris from CLE

You guys are lucky, three times I wrote a response that probably was way too long and decided to say as long as the current can not flow anywhere it is a standing current, waiting to be freed and allowed to do it's best or worst . The ammeter can only show the flow of the 1 wire that connects the alternator to the resistor block when that flow exists. I have seen no ability to measure a standing current even although it may be flowing in an opposite direction from the battery until it becomes a stand current once more. The flow from the alternator seems to over power the battery flow regulating it to a standing current while the alternator is producing the higher of the two currents. If the battery fails to provide enough current for the circuits then it begins to drain the battery in an attempt to provide the needed current to the system.
Better stop here, need to get to the machine shop.

 

[William S]

My bad as I didn't know that your shop didn't bore it.

I really don't know whether he did or not. As with most things unless I eyeballed the situation I can only assume and we know where that leads to.

 

[William S]

Safety wiring, pal nuts, cotter pins on nuts, is WWII technology. no self respecting shop uses any of that stuff in the last forty years. There is no measureable standard for the "dab" of silicone on the seal end any more than there is for proper seal protrusion. As TOH posted, sleeve glue is just a common use product in today's world, and some brands advertise enhanced heat transfer, and the sleeves are often held down just by proper placement of the gasket. While copper gasket spray may be popular it is still rarely used since gasket manufacturers recommend against it. If I owned the shop I would hire a security company to get pictures of you and have a guard on watch to watch for you and turn off the lights and put a closed sign on the door when they see you coming. I would then cut my losses by offering to PAY YOU standard amounts for all work done for you and any parts/supplies used on your motor and ask you to please never come back.

All of those WWII technology items you mention were brought up here on this site by the various people trying to help me . I am sure that even though the repair manuals that most everyone site everyday here is full of WWII things that your shop has decided not to do because of the possible updating of processes over the years. There still remains the fact that I was clear when I dropped off the engine what should happen to it and what an end result should be when completed. I'm sorry that you feel a security guard is needed to keep out customers while you wonder where all the business has gone. Rather than insult me on my use of knowledge on the process of rebuilding a 80-85 year old engine it would be more productive to enlighten me on the new ways of rebuilding a engine in today's environment. That way others may have the benefit of your knowledge on the subject.
Bottom line, if it is in the manual and spoken of here on this site I feel it is not improper to have a person take my engine and do what is needed to complete the engine. TO have as many issues as I have mentioned and a few I rather not mention with this engine to me does not show a clear concept of what was spoken of in the beginning. Rather it show lack of follow thru of someone who has been in business since 1987 and even before when his father owns the shop going back decades. The only animosity I have over this is your response and it concerns me for other who may be coming to you for a job that they may or may not be able to do. As a machine shop does many jobs and tasks that the simple tractor owner has no way of completing. Not being clear about what the machinist may or may not do to the engine and then to at least educate the customer on a realistic outcome is the shops task.
I better stop here before it gets too late, Thank You for your input on this matter and I will give the proper consideration it deserves. Have a nice week and good bye

 

[William S]

Not tricky at all. Remove the sleeves, wipe block bore and sleeves down with spray brake cleaner and proceed.

TOH

If I am to repair the install, from the looks of it I may as well install the correct sleeves then. Seems like I'd be tearing down the engine once more, just none of the shop items to do. That is if I believe I can trust the work already done. After talking with him, he says it is OK, no worries, industry standard to have loose cylinders and the head gasket will hold them down anyways.. No need for adhesive of any type or copper spray, even though I have a low spot between the no.s 2 & 3 cylinders. Barely noticeable. As I have little experience measuring this type of items, I may be back asking more questions on that subject. I may have someone to help that is more capable , we'll see what happens.

Oh, I had issue getting the starter to turn the engine, well after checking everything, (almost) I found the problem. The ring gear he installed is no longer attached to the fly wheel, need to locate a welder to come by and weld them back together again. As time allows.....

I keep wonder just who is re-writing the practices shown in the older manuals and not telling us they have done so. I've contacted 3 sleeve manufactures and none has said clearly that loose is OK. One did say "An 8N should have a press tight fit. A lot of people actually put them in the freezer to “shrink” them before installing. " I can see where they may not want to be involved.
Thank you, William

 

[TheOldHokie]

If I am to repair the install, from the looks of it I may as well install the correct sleeves then. Seems like I'd be tearing down the engine once more, just none of the shop items to do. That is if I believe I can trust the work already done. After talking with him, he says it is OK, no worries, industry standard to have loose cylinders and the head gasket will hold them down anyways.. No need for adhesive of any type or copper spray, even though I have a low spot between the no.s 2 & 3 cylinders. Barely noticeable. As I have little experience measuring this type of items, I may be back asking more questions on that subject. I may have someone to help that is more capable , we'll see what happens.

Oh, I had issue getting the starter to turn the engine, well after checking everything, (almost) I found the problem. The ring gear he installed is no longer attached to the fly wheel, need to locate a welder to come by and weld them back together again. As time allows.....

I keep wonder just who is re-writing the practices shown in the older manuals and not telling us they have done so. I've contacted 3 sleeve manufactures and none has said clearly that loose is OK. One did say "An 8N should have a press tight fit. A lot of people actually put them in the freezer to “shrink” them before installing. " I can see where they may not want to be involved.
Thank you, William

What makes you think you have the wrong sleeves? Where are you going to get the "right" ones?

TOH

 

[William S]

What makes you think you have the wrong sleeves? Where are you going to get the "right" ones? IT sounds like once you have sleeves installed there is no other options for a better fit. Who knows maybe I will send the block out have it re-bored , is that possible?

TOH

That's what I am talking about, first class help. Not knowing what to question, I'd thought I could spend more time going over the past posts here. Then I may be able to formulate a proper question and post it here. Something along the line of: is it possible to locate 2 or more sleeves that would produce a better fit than I have now? or Being that the sleeves are 0.090 size does the lack of proper contact with the cylinder walls create random hot spots within the cylinder that can cause short life of the sleeve? or How good of a holder will the head gasket be over the years? Will the use of a adhesive shorten the life of the sleeve? or Where might I find the best variety sizes of sleeves? or Could we at least see what size may be required to eliminate the floating sleeves? I am not only thinking of today's use of the tractor (once I get it running), I believe if I try to do my best , "Leave it better than you found it.", it would be like "Paying it forward" with repairs that don't create future problems that would send the tractor to the scrap yard.

Well in the long run I was hoping I may find help with answering those questions on this site. Other than that I am clueless at this time

 

[TheOldHokie]

That's what I am talking about, first class help. Not knowing what to question, I'd thought I could spend more time going over the past posts here. Then I may be able to formulate a proper question and post it here. Something along the line of: is it possible to locate 2 or more sleeves that would produce a better fit than I have now? or Being that the sleeves are 0.090 size does the lack of proper contact with the cylinder walls create random hot spots within the cylinder that can cause short life of the sleeve? or How good of a holder will the head gasket be over the years? Will the use of a adhesive shorten the life of the sleeve? or Where might I find the best variety sizes of sleeves? or Could we at least see what size may be required to eliminate the floating sleeves? I am not only thinking of today's use of the tractor (once I get it running), I believe if I try to do my best , "Leave it better than you found it.", it would be like "Paying it forward" with repairs that don't create future problems that would send the tractor to the scrap yard.

Well in the long run I was hoping I may find help with answering those questions on this site. Other than that I am clueless at this time

You are grossly over thinking things.

A machine shop can fit custom repair sleeves. Lots of money and your tractor is now nonstandard.

Much simpler and far easier to use a little sleeve retaining compound on the standard sleeves and live happily ever after. This repair is time tested and proven on thousands of N series tractors that had this very same problem.

 

[Eman85]

It really sounds like you might have picked the wrong machine shop to do your work. It is a bad situation but it might be time to find the right machine shop and cut your losses. It's a huge problem for anyone wanting to keep older equipment going as the knowledgeable people have retired and, in many cases, didn't mentor anyone.

 

[wore out]

It really sounds like you might have picked the wrong machine shop to do your work. It is a bad situation but it might be time to find the right machine shop and cut your losses. It's a huge problem for anyone wanting to keep older equipment going as the knowledgeable people have retired and, in many cases, didn't mentor anyone.

I don't recall reading that the machine shop had anything to do with the parent bore sizes and I'm not going back 30 posts, at this point to have another look, so help me out and point me to where the machine shop bored it. please.

 

[teddy52food]

Secure your sleeves with any good sleeve retaining compound. Its an industry standard practice..

You dont want or need to coat the entire sleeve. In your case just put a 1" wide band around the bottom of the block bore and another 1" wide band around the top of the sleeve. Assemble as usual. Don't screw it up because removal wont be easy once the compound cures and it cures fast.

TOH

I see that as putting a band aid on a gun shot wound! That is not a standard practice.

 

[William S]

You are grossly over thinking things.

A machine shop can fit custom repair sleeves. Lots of money and your tractor is now nonstandard.

Much simpler and far easier to use a little sleeve retaining compound on the standard sleeves and live happily ever after. This repair is time tested and proven on thousands of N series tractors that had this very same problem.

my sleeves were not like that before he did his work. what happened to create this situation? and so I am now stuck with a 'non-standard' engine any way i go. 'cause sleeves moving in the cylinder is 'non-standard' correct? i took it to him because the job was way beyond my skill set and tool set at this time. i can plow my way through this job and glue the sleeves in, but i asked or at least thought i asked what would be the future issues of doing so?
somewhere someone had the correct job done and left me with what i would call a standard engine, something i was not cursing over when it came to repairing it with my skill-set. i would have thought i would still be in that situation if i took it to a shop and had them properly do the work. so what am i to take from this? the shop did the correct job and i am just concerned over nothing? i doubt that he did not know about the sleeves before it left the shop. then why leave them like that?

overthinking, yes that may be true, but to not do so only .......... what i wrote was in response to your 2 questions. the what and the where of the problem, mostly hypothetical of the moment. you asked me "What makes you think you have the wrong sleeves? Where are you going to get the "right" ones?" and i did a poor job of responding to them, so the sleeves were not like that before and my main issue with the engine was oil was getting past the exhaust valves and into the manifold of no.s 3 & 4 cylinders. talk about smoking, but she still wanted to work. now i am unsure if what i am left with is worse than i had before, just kicking the can down the road 10-20 years or so, maybe only 5-10 years.

as for the second question, well i have not a clue in the world where to get such sleeves.

now i wonder if he ground the block down did he even consider that the piston may hit the cover as it loosen up or the valves? as i see no changes to the inside of the head and it does not take much to cause a problem. there are so many things that a person can muscle through in the shop manuals. I guess that is why ford and ferguson wrote it that way. knowing not every tractor owner would be able to perform the correct job as desired.

 

[William S]

I see that as putting a band aid on a gun shot wound! That is not a standard practice.

thank you teddy52food

 

[TheOldHokie]

I don't recall reading that the machine shop had anything to do with the parent bore sizes and I'm not going back 30 posts, at this point to have another look, so help me out and point me to where the machine shop bored it. please.

By my reading the machine shop did not bore it. My assumption is they installed mew aftermarket sleeves.

The parent bore is likely slighyly oversize from age and movement of the original/previous sleeves.

TOH

 

[wore out]

By my reading the machine shop did not bore it. My assumption is they installed mew aftermarket sleeves.

The parent bore is likely slighyly oversize from age and movement of the original/previous sleeves.

TOH

That's how I see it, as well, IF that's true the current machine shop is BLAMELESS, and as you and I know a bit of "sleeve retaining compound" will make a "permanent repair" and the project can move on!

From some of the replies one would think this is some sort of exotic, high speed, high temperature engine, high horsepower engine, LOL!

 

[wore out]

my sleeves were not like that before he did his work. what happened to create this situation? and so I am now stuck with a 'non-standard' engine any way i go. 'cause sleeves moving in the cylinder is 'non-standard' correct? i took it to him because the job was way beyond my skill set and tool set at this time. i can plow my way through this job and glue the sleeves in, but i asked or at least thought i asked what would be the future issues of doing so?
somewhere someone had the correct job done and left me with what i would call a standard engine, something i was not cursing over when it came to repairing it with my skill-set. i would have thought i would still be in that situation if i took it to a shop and had them properly do the work. so what am i to take from this? the shop did the correct job and i am just concerned over nothing? i doubt that he did not know about the sleeves before it left the shop. then why leave them like that?

overthinking, yes that may be true, but to not do so only .......... what i wrote was in response to your 2 questions. the what and the where of the problem, mostly hypothetical of the moment. you asked me "What makes you think you have the wrong sleeves? Where are you going to get the "right" ones?" and i did a poor job of responding to them, so the sleeves were not like that before and my main issue with the engine was oil was getting past the exhaust valves and into the manifold of no.s 3 & 4 cylinders. talk about smoking, but she still wanted to work. now i am unsure if what i am left with is worse than i had before, just kicking the can down the road 10-20 years or so, maybe only 5-10 years.

as for the second question, well i have not a clue in the world where to get such sleeves.

now i wonder if he ground the block down did he even consider that the piston may hit the cover as it loosen up or the valves? as i see no changes to the inside of the head and it does not take much to cause a problem. there are so many things that a person can muscle through in the shop manuals. I guess that is why ford and ferguson wrote it that way. knowing not every tractor owner would be able to perform the correct job as desired.

When you get the lower end assembled set the cylinder head in place WITHOUT the gasket and rotate the crankshaft. IF there's piston-cylinder head interference the pistons will "rock" the head and you will need to "relieve" the contact area(s) on the head a bit with a die grinder.

NOTHING odd, or unique or something that's never happened before or that can be avoided when working on these engines.

 

[TheOldHokie]

That's how I see it, as well, IF that's true the current machine shop is BLAMELESS, and as you and I know a bit of "sleeve retaining compound" will make a "permanent repair" and the project can move on!

From some of the replies one would think this is some sort of exotic, high speed, high temperature engine, high horsepower engine, LOL!

I am also sure we share similar thoughts on how the parent bores may have lost their "grip" over the course of 75+ years.

TOH

 

[William S]

It really sounds like you might have picked the wrong machine shop to do your work. It is a bad situation but it might be time to find the right machine shop and cut your losses. It's a huge problem for anyone wanting to keep older equipment going as the knowledgeable people have retired and, in many cases, didn't mentor anyone.

i spent many a day looking for shop to do the work. seems like co video took several of the shops out of business. cause after that there were not as many shops left open. i am looking for a shop now and am hearing it may be 3-4 months or longer before they can even look at the engine, let alone work on it. the one that did the work said he had to round out the cylinders and make them good for the sleeves. i don't know if that means bore or not, but he did something to change the original fit.

it is a shame that so many shops are now closed. to this day many of them are still listed in the directories and that puzzles me. one would not know they were closed unless they called or went by the old store front. not like the days when listing were removed completely. well thank you

When you get the lower end assembled set the cylinder head in place WITHOUT the gasket and rotate the crankshaft. IF there's piston-cylinder head interference the pistons will "rock" the head and you will need to "relieve" the contact area(s) on the head a bit with a die grinder.

NOTHING odd, or unique or something that's never happened before or that can be avoided when working on these engines.

somewhere i read i could put on a second head gasket to make up for the metal loss. thank you for the information, i will do so when the time comes.

 

[TheOldHokie]

somewhere i read i could put on a second head gasket to make up for the metal loss. thank you for the information, i will do so when the time comes.

And you are worried about using a modern anerobic automotive adhesive? Sheesh!!!

BTW - Teddy is a bit technology challenged.

At the risk of being accused of low blows ask him if he still believes in Joe Newnan's energy machine.

TOH

 

[William S]

I am also sure we share similar thoughts on how the parent bores may have lost their "grip" over the course of 75+ years.

TOH

so what are we talking about here? maybe we need to define bore and honing and any other type of wearing away withe the metal in a cylinder. So boring, just what is that? Is it similar to other types of metal grinding? if so what types?
In my mind whenever there is a instrument placed within the cylinder that changes the shape or size of said cylinder is that not boring?
Is boring defined by certain size requirements? such as before and after said instrument has done it work? i ask because it sounds like once it is bored there is little change there after in relation to a sleeve. unless the cylinder shape is corrupted over time and needs grinding down more to obtain a roundness for the sleeve.
are all sleeves of the0.090 size the same on the outside diameter (OD)? as i have not looked at the specs for sleeves due to my ignorance of what i would be looking at.
not trying to be like another wore out subject, just trying to have a clear picture of what I need to know when talking bore. so that we may be able to have a more productive talk here. if the is a resource you can direct me to , let me know and i will go and try to learn there. i am not afraid of learning , only of remaining ignorant beyond all of these issues.