Back after a lot of poking and prodding, 2n sleeves loose

[TheOldHokie]

so... sounds like this process is more reliable if done with the new sleeves in hand...

which makes sense...

Its the only reliable way. You are using comparitive measurements taken with the same instrument which eliminates calibration errors. Trying to work in absolute measurements is a recipe for problems.

Dan

 

[teddy52food]

A modern automotive machine shop can reliably hone a cylinder to a couple tenths (.0002). So measure the OD of each sleeve, bore the corresponding cylinder in the block to .002 under, and finish hone to .0005 interference. This type of selective fit is a process they do every day.

TOH

I measure the sleeves top, center and bottom in 3 places around the sleeve. Average of the 9 gives the size to bore - the press fit. And I would go for a full thousands interferance as those .090 sleeves can take it.

 

[will-max dairy]

I measure the sleeves top, center and bottom in 3 places around the sleeve. Average of the 9 gives the size to bore - the press fit. And I would go for a full thousands interferance as those .090 sleeves can take it.

Thanks for a peek into the process.

This is why I generally only do "machining" on wood; which is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more forgiving. I let the people that know what they're doing do the metal...

 

[will-max dairy]

I measure the sleeves top, center and bottom in 3 places around the sleeve. Average of the 9 gives the size to bore - the press fit. And I would go for a full thousands interferance as those .090 sleeves can take it.

Also... if you go for the full .001 interference... what does that mean for installation? A legitimate pressing process? Or can that still be done with the hammer and some kind of driving jig?

 

[teddy52food]

Thanks for a peak into the process.

This is why I generally only do "machining" on wood; which is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more forgiving. I let the people that know what they're doing do the metal...

I had my own boring bar before I worked in a rebuilding shop for 6 years then had my own repair shop for 18 years before I got disabled. I must have bored at least a couple hundred blocks in that time. Many repair sleeves too. On the last cut I would start to bore just enough so I could get a mike there & measure it to be sure it is right before finishing the cut.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Also... if you go for the full .001 interference... what does that mean for installation? A legitimate pressing process? Or can that still be done with the hammer and some kind of driving jig?

I went back to the FO-4 and double checked the Ford spec. It is s in fact .001 - apologies for my faulty memory. In most applications you can easily drive a .001 interference home - think ball bearing on a shaft. Here is a video clip of one of my customers installing aftermarket sleeves in a 134 engine with factory fit I get called weekly about these tools from DIYers. rebuilding N's and I have probably seen just about every possible fitment problem.

TOH

 

[will-max dairy]

I had my own boring bar before I worked in a rebuilding shop for 6 years then had my own repair shop for 18 years before I got disabled. I must have bored at least a couple hundred blocks in that time. Many repair sleeves too. On the last cut I would start to bore just enough so I could get a mike there & measure it to be sure it is right before finishing the cut.

I think this also brings up how my little tangent story about the IH D407 blocks up above becomes relevant.

My personal philosophy is either do it quick and dirty and take the risk. Or... if you're going to go for the best... go absolutely for the best. (which in this case is... if you want to put a shop on the hook for quality... then let them control the process from stem to stern...)

Because, with the IH D407 blocks they would sell you a kit of various- oversized sleeves and rent you a press... and have you try to get the right fit as measured by pressure; so that you could do an "at home installation"... and my brother did this a couple of times with varying success... but... the last time he was into that tractor; he just bought a reman short block with sleeves that were installed at the machine shop; where they could do processes like you say... essentially measure and custom hone.

That reman short block has lasted longer than previous "at home" sleeve installations, because it was all done under machine shop conditions.... and for how long the "at home" installations lasted... he could have just pounded a few kinda loose sleeves in with a bunch of adhesive and called it a day...as opposed to trying to get machine shop accuracy on the farm...

 

[will-max dairy]

I went back to the FO-4 and double checked the Ford spec. It is s in fact .001 - apologies for my faulty memory. In most applications you can easily drive a .001 interference home - think ball bearing on a shaft. Here is a video clip of one of my customers installing aftermarket sleeves in a 134 engine with factory fit I get called weekly about these tools from DIYers. rebuilding N's and I have probably seen just about every possible fitment problem.

TOH

I'm chuckling...

See? There was way more agreement amongst people here than it seemed...

Mission accomplished... lol

 

[TheOldHokie]

I think this also brings up how my little tangent story about the IH D407 blocks up above becomes relevant.

My personal philosophy is either do it quick and dirty and take the risk. Or... if you're going to go for the best... go absolutely for the best.

Because, with the IH D407 blocks they would sell you a kit of various- oversized sleeves and rent you a press... and have you try to get the right fit as measured by pressure; so that you could do an "at home installation"... and my brother did this a couple of times with varying success... but... the last time he was into that tractor; he just bought a reman short block with sleeves that were installed at the machine shop; where they could do processes like you say... essentially measure and custom hone.

That reman short block has lasted longer than previous "at home" sleeve installations, because it was all done under machine shop conditions.... and for how long the "at home" installations lasted... he could have just pounded a few kinda loose sleeves in with a bunch of adhesive and called it a day...as opposed to trying to get machine shop accuracy on the farm...

The tools to measure sleeve to bore interference consist of a dial bore gauge and a micrometer. Cost you about $150 and they are a worthwhile investment for any DIYer doing engine builds.

TOH

 

[will-max dairy]

The tools to measure sleeve to bore interference consist of a dial bore gauge and a micrometer. Cost you about $150 and they are a worthwhile investment for any DIYer doing engine builds.

TOH

He had them.

He exercised "due diligence"...

I think the main issue there is that the IH D407 is really finicky. (And... diesel... and quite a bit bigger and more tolerance sensitive than an old N tractor)

 

[TheOldHokie]

I'm chuckling...

See? There was way more agreement amongst people here than it seemed...

Mission accomplished... lol

I just got off the phone with a guy (complete stranger) who called looking for help. He has a brand new professionally rebuilt 8N engime that dropped a sleeve after less than 1 hour runtime. Machine shop says they indtalled new Made in America .040 sleeves in the original factory bore and everyrhing was in spec. With head off numbers 2 and 3 come up out of the block with the pistons. Sound familiar?

I gave him my standard advice:

1. Rebore the block for .090 wall sleeves. becaize the .040 design was a horrible failure.
2. Install new .040 sleeves and secure them with a suitable adhesive.

He is going with number 2 because he needs the tractor operational ASAP.

TOH

 

[teddy52food]

I just got off the phone with a guy (complete stranger) who called looking for help. He has a brand new professionally rebuilt 8N engime that dropped a sleeve after less than 1 hour runtime. Machine shop says they indtalled new Made in America .040 sleeves in the original factory bore and everyrhing was in spec. With head off numbers 2 and 3 come up out of the block with the pistons. Sound familiar?

I gave him my standard advice:

1. Rebore the block for .090 wall sleeves. becaize the .040 design was a horrible failure.
2. Install new .040 sleeves and secure them with a suitable adhesive.

He is going with number 2 because he needs the tractor operational ASAP.

TOH

I watched your video of installing that sleeve. I saw something I did not like. When that sleeve is almost home You are to give it light taps until seated. By hitting it hard the sleeve may try to go deeper & crack the flange which later fails.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I watched your video of installing that sleeve. I saw something I did not like. When that sleeve is almost home You are to give it light taps until seated. By hitting it hard the sleeve may try to go deeper & crack the flange which later fails.

Take it up wirh the guy in the video.

 

[Ultradog MN]

And whatever route he goes, when it's done and he tallys up all the money he spent on it it he'll likely slap his forhead, say DOH! real loudly and say, "I could've bought a tractor with live hydraulics, live pto, power steering, better brakes, and more horsepower for that."

 

[TheOldHokie]

And whatever route he goes, when it's done and he tallys up all the money he spent on it it he'll likely slap his forhead, say DOH! real loudly and say, "I could've bought a tractor with live hydraulics, live pto, power steering, better brakes, and more horsepower for that."

But Grandad had an 8N....

The one and only reason the 8N is still in my shop. And even that wont save it from imminent eviction.

TOH

 

[Non-farmer]

I understand and agree with all the N criticism, but for one thing. Mine is just a riding mower which rarely pulls anything other than a 5' finish mower. The only reason the hydraulics operate is that I spin the PTO. If they ever stop working, I will never touch them because I don't ever lift the mower deck. On that basis, being wayyyyy more comfortable on my back to operate than my brand new Scag, they both easily earn the space they occupy in my machine shed. (Not to mention I went with a 36" deck on the Scag, it's just for tidying up by buildings and landscaping - the N blows it away time-wise to mow the lawn.) I am just about to do a walking survey of the high ground to check grass length, and may pull the N out and mow this afternoon. I have 3.5 inches of gas in it, it's ready should it be called on

FWIW, I did freeze my 090 sleeves the night before I put the new ones in, and I had to gently tap 2 of them down with a piece of 2x4. As Boromir told Aragorn, "One does not simply drop their sleeves in or throw away scrap lumber.". No loctite needed. On that note, is it now acceptable to direct (albeit limited) criticism at His Highness Henry, for things like the sediment bowl assembly and the 040 sleeves? Since I have a 2 and not an 8, I rarely beach about the speed of reverse, but if I had my druthers, it would still be slower. If I didn't own a WD as well, I would constantly complain about the 'dead' PTO tho. But the finish mower will only push the N about 2 feet.

 

[Non-farmer]

PS: being so timid and soft-spoken I only just learned with that last post that the word for a female dog will not pass muster here.

Edit: I should also add that even with the rebuild, my N still only cost me less than a third of the price of the Scag. I can live with that investment.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I understand and agree with all the N criticism, but for one thing. Mine is just a riding mower which rarely pulls anything other than a 5' finish mower. The only reason the hydraulics operate is that I spin the PTO. If they ever stop working, I will never touch them because I don't ever lift the mower deck. On that basis, being wayyyyy more comfortable on my back to operate than my brand new Scag, they both easily earn the space they occupy in my machine shed. (Not to mention I went with a 36" deck on the Scag, it's just for tidying up by buildings and landscaping - the N blows it away time-wise to mow the lawn.) I am just about to do a walking survey of the high ground to check grass length, and may pull the N out and mow this afternoon. I have 3.5 inches of gas in it, it's ready should it be called on

FWIW, I did freeze my 090 sleeves the night before I put the new ones in, and I had to gently tap 2 of them down with a piece of 2x4. As Boromir told Aragorn, "One does not simply drop their sleeves in or throw away scrap lumber.". No loctite needed. On that note, is it now acceptable to direct (albeit limited) criticism at His Highness Henry, for things like the sediment bowl assembly and the 040 sleeves? Since I have a 2 and not an 8, I rarely beach about the speed of reverse, but if I had my druthers, it would still be slower. If I didn't own a WD as well, I would constantly complain about the 'dead' PTO tho. But the finish mower will only push the N about 2 feet.

I have a very nice late model 8N here that is about to go at a bargain price. Has brand new (as in never seen the dirt) rubber on new rims front and back. I hate the look of an aternator on these classuc old machines. So this one has a "stealth" 12v conversion done to the factIory generator by a local auto electrical shop. Yes its negative ground and you can have lots of fun baffling youe friends. Hydraulics also work like factory new

Bring a trailer and you can take it and a vintage correct Dearborn 2 bottom plow and tandem disk harrow home for less than half of what you paid for your Scag. You know that 2N needs a period correct friend....

TOH

 

[will-max dairy]

I understand and agree with all the N criticism, but for one thing. Mine is just a riding mower which rarely pulls anything other than a 5' finish mower. The only reason the hydraulics operate is that I spin the PTO. If they ever stop working, I will never touch them because I don't ever lift the mower deck. On that basis, being wayyyyy more comfortable on my back to operate than my brand new Scag, they both easily earn the space they occupy in my machine shed. (Not to mention I went with a 36" deck on the Scag, it's just for tidying up by buildings and landscaping - the N blows it away time-wise to mow the lawn.) I am just about to do a walking survey of the high ground to check grass length, and may pull the N out and mow this afternoon. I have 3.5 inches of gas in it, it's ready should it be called on

FWIW, I did freeze my 090 sleeves the night before I put the new ones in, and I had to gently tap 2 of them down with a piece of 2x4. As Boromir told Aragorn, "One does not simply drop their sleeves in or throw away scrap lumber.". No loctite needed. On that note, is it now acceptable to direct (albeit limited) criticism at His Highness Henry, for things like the sediment bowl assembly and the 040 sleeves? Since I have a 2 and not an 8, I rarely beach about the speed of reverse, but if I had my druthers, it would still be slower. If I didn't own a WD as well, I would constantly complain about the 'dead' PTO tho. But the finish mower will only push the N about 2 feet.

Preachin' to the choir on many counts. If I have my way, our old Ford 2N will celebrate its 100th birthday on our farm in 2043. Sure...the hydraulics leak down over the course of about a minute, and (with a Sherman) it has two reverse speeds: "Ludicrous" and "Warp"...it needs an overrunning coupler... whatever...

BUT... we have a 5' finish mower for it; which renders lawn mowing to an afterthought with some trimming touch-up... and its combination of size, weight and tire diameter make it skip along through wet hayfields doing tasks like raking and tedding, leaving nary a mark... nevermind a rut.

BUT also... it cost us 800 to buy it, about 800 for parts to do an in-frame rebuild with all new valve assemblies, and about 100 dollars a year in various-sundry parts. That's nowhere near the price for a working modern tractor that wouldn't pull a rake or tedder any better anyway. Heck... go price those landfill-bait-stamped-sheetmetal lawnmowers that they sell nowadays... 3k...4k...I just saw a zero turn for 12k... and they won't pull a hay rake in the hayfield...

BUT also, also... we have a couple of modern tractors to do the modern stuff... loader work... running the bigger PTO implements that need live PTO, etc.

BUT also, also, also... in my world, I would save the cost of high precision machining and such for our newer tractors, and essentially keep money spent on the N to whatever it needs to start and run reliably. At 80 years old... it doesn't have to work at or above original factory spec.


Disclaimer:
If any of y'all readers are taking my post as saying that trying to do small time haying or farming of any scale below about 12,000 cows or 4,000 acres of crops is a good economic choice to make... and you'll be humming tra-la-la-boom-dee-ay... wearing your red suspenders... and selling fair trade, organic, gluten free, grass-fed elderberry cordial at the local farmer's market for 45 dollars an ounce... think again... I've lost plenty of money on farming for the right to drive our old 2N around raking hay, until such time as the local mega-dairy rents out all the available crop land...or it gets contracted to legal weed, solar panels or whatever else is the subsidized venture of the day...

 

[Ultradog MN]

I understand and agree with all the N criticism...

I hope you don't consider my comments above as a criticism.
Ns are great, small tractors.
But...
Before I spent a pile of dough restoring one I would at least consider a little newer Ford. For about the same $ as an N plus an engine overhaul and maybe new tires you can buy a newer Ford that has a lot more features.
Lastly, for the sentimentalists, that emotion counts for little with me. My first tractor was a 2N that my father left me. I used it for a couple of years and sold it to buy a better one.
His was a good little tractor but I dont miss it.