Can't get 1953 Super A to charge

[Kingmopar]

I know this has been hit on before, believe me...I have been looking everywhere for an answer. I purchased a 53 Super A, already converted to a 12 volt system, old girl ran great, but was "patina" in color, wiring harness was home made, etc....so, as I always do...I go in, head first. New cloth wrapped/repo wiring harness, for 12 volt converted Super A's, new steering wheel,fixed a few leaks, painted tractor--automotive green etch, 2k primer/single stage IH-50 red, new lights, new tires, new gauges, switches, radiator fixed and hot tanked, new fan, etc. I still have the hood/grill to finish body work wise. I can NOT get her to charge. I got a reman. GM 1 wire from Autozone, and have already taken it back and via them, it "tested" fine. I have it wired, just as it says do via the diagram on this site..."other" than...could not find a stand-a-lone, "old school" idiot light(everything LED now)...so had a 11 ohm, 3-5 watt resistor around, so added that into the circuit going back from F1 at the alternator, back to the open side of the switch. F2, goes to the hot pin, on back of the alternator, which feeds back to the + side of the 60 amp new meter I installed. I have some 10 ohm, 2 watts on the way, to see if that is the issue. I changed the 2.5 inch alternator pulley, to a 2.3 inch alternator pulley. I even grounded the alternator housing, back to the alternator bracket, to see if that will help and make sure it's not a grounding issue, as I did repaint the tractor and a lot, was done "piecemeal". Have also put in a internal resisted coil...and electronic ignition..which, is the bomb, in my book...but..this charging issues is beating my brain!!! When I "first" put this new..aka "rebuilt" alternator on...on it's first crank..it went to charge for about 45 seconds...now...nothing. At full throttle, only getting some 12.7 volts, at the alternator, or battery. Alternator is spec'd for a 1970's model/ 6 cylinder GM, one wire. I understand the later(80's) 1 one wire alternators would excite on start up and at lower RPM. I have checked via screwdriver to the back of the alternator, it is magnetized.

[/img]

 

[Kingmopar]

I'm also still using the old battery that came with the tractor...it seems to hold a charge fine after putting on the charger....I have a new battery and battery box to put in, I have not tried that
yet...but...if the old battery charged will crank the tractor, I can't see how that will cause a charging issues. Fully charged, old battery would top off at around 13 volts.

 

[banjoman09]

Ill stay away from the charging for now - but what a nice paint job!

 

[Bob]

"Alternator is spec'd for a 1970's model/ 6 cylinder GM, one wire. I understand the later (80's) 1 one wire alternators would excite on start up and at lower RPM."

NOT sure where you are coming from with this, but GM never used "one wire" alternators in those applications, or for that matter never made any 10SI's or 12SI's that were "one wire", at least for automotive use, AFAIK.

The "one wire" alternators are aftermarket bastardizations of the OEM alternators.

That being said, if the bearing/shaft area of the alternator is strongly magnetized ts should be charging, unless there's a stator winding or rectifier problem.

Also, you wrote:

"Alternator is spec'd for a 1970's model."

If a really early 70's it would NOT have an internal regulator, '70, '71, '72, and possibly some 1973 models did NOT have an internal regulator, although they are very similar in appearance to the internally regulated units that immediately followed.

If the two flat terminals are like THIS... I I refer to the "F" and "R" markings, (and IGNORE the "1" and "2") and it is NOT internally regulated.

If the two flat terminals are like THIS... - - refer to the "1" and "2" markings, (and IGNORE the "F" and "R") and it is NOT internally regulated.

 

[Steve@Advance]

Everything about your wiring sounds good. But you don't have a "one wire", you have a 3 wire. Anyway, sounds
like it is wired correctly.

Just to double check, be sure you have voltage at the #1 terminal with the ignition on. Should have battery
voltage to the BAT and #2 all the time.

The only thing that looks suspicious is the angle of the belt. What is driving the alternator? It appears to
be driven off something above the crank, aux off the water pump?. That may be too slow to excite. Any way to
speed it up?

 

[kevinthefixer]

The belt looked off to me too, but you said it charged for a few seconds, so it can't be low rpm. Do the voltmeter checks, actually you can use a test light here. If that's OK, just pull the alternator and take it to your friendly neighborhood parts store, they'll check it for you.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

One possible answer is to just get a true one-wire alternator, attach it directly to the "load" side of the ammeter, and be done with it.

If you are determined to make this work, and you have a correct internally regulated Delco 10SI style alternator, you can completely disconnect the excite wire, and manually excite the generator by running a jumper wire to your starter switch, and manually touch it there momentarily after the tractor has started and is running at about 1/2 throttle. If it starts charging, all you need to figure out after that is where to get an LED or a diode.

You do have the BAT wire from the alternator connected to the opposite side of the ammeter from the battery, right? If you connect to the same side, it is bypassing the ammeter and won't show a charge, though it will be charging.

 

[WGM]

Get rid of the 1 wire alternator and install a 3 wire alternator with an internal regulator. Problem solved. I am writing from experience.

 

[jwitty]

You say new gauges...well i just put a new chevy 3 wire alternator on my jd b and new amp gauge. I was having charging problems at first (no charge) and nothing showing on amp gauge, so for fun I switched the wires on the amp gauge and it started charging at 14ish volts. But the gauge read negative lol. I thought there's either something wrong with the gauge, or my wires weren't on the right sides.

 

[teddy52food]

Is the belt tight from the crank pulley to the fan? Also you can by pass the regulator by grounding the little tab in the D shaped hole in the back of the alt. Hook a jumper cable from the alt case directly to the battery ground post. & see if it will charge. You have a lot of paint that prevents good contact.

 

[Kingmopar]

My setup. I believe I spec'd a 1973 Chevy, 6 cylinder alternator....as I had a 73, V8 Chevy pickup, as a teenager and didn't remember it having a external voltage
regulator--and I had to mechanic on it all the time-LOL! My thinking was the 6, would have a lower rpm range. I went thru the suggested checks..BAT at alternator
and #2 terminal are hot all the time/switch OFF and battery hooked up. #1 terminal was around 10.5 volts, with the switch ON, no voltage with switch off. On the
cluster, the BAT wire from the alternator goes to the - side of the amp gauge, voltage from the battery goes to the + side of the amp gauge. The "red" wire
pictured goes from the open side of the switch, thru 11 ohm resistor and also now a 12v LED light(have tried with/without LED before) and runs to terminal 2 on
the alternator. I found no resistance in the LED light, so thought I'd give that a whirl. IF I cut the switch on, amp meter moves slightly to discharge,
headlights, tail light on...moves further to discharge, with the tractor off. My Super A doesn't have a water pump, alternator is driven off the fan pulley(new,
aftermarket) and the crank turns the fan. I purchased the "kit" that included brackets to mount the alternator. Maybe I did get alternator of the wrong year. I
dropped alternator pulley size down anyway, from a 2.6 to a 2.3 overdrive pulley. We have an optical tach at work and was going to borrow to see exactly what RPM
the alt. pulley was actually turning at high/low speeds.

 

[Kingmopar]

More photos
<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto6740.jpg"/>

<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto6741.jpg"/>

 

[jwitty]

If you mean you have an led on the wire going from ig. switch to #1 on alternator that might be your problem. Try taking the led light out of the circuit and see what happens

 

[jwitty]

Since you have a butt connector there by the alt for the #1, cut it off and touch the #1 wire to pos of the alternator and see if you charge

 

[Kingmopar]

Tried with and without the LED light. I'll try touching #1 to the Bat terminal tomorrow.....geeze...I hate second shift!!!

 

[Kingmopar]

Nope....unplugged the GM connector on the side of the alternator, used a jumper to touch #1 to the BAT terminal on the alternator...still nothing. Naturally, have been trying to do a bunch of reading on this
subject. One forum says use a 1N5408 diode back to the switch and even a aftermarket place sells a "kit", with this same diode, but a old school warning light, will do..the same thing. Some other rodder
forum, state that one should use anywhere from a 50 to 300 ohm resistor(to simulate an old school warning light) to prevent damage to the rectifier circuit of the alternator...which the forums and diagram
here, say use a 10 ohm, 2 or higher watt resistor...which mine is 11 ohm(freebie)and rated at 3 watt. Apparently, this has worked for some folks, but not so far, for me. I was like...what the heck...50 to
300 ohms for a tiny warning light?? I know that as a light, "makes light"...it's resistance changes and goes up. I had an extra 70's Mopar A body instrument clusters around...but...I couldn't get a reading
on my ohm meter on any of the bulbs, in their holder...well, they are 57 years old, so that was a bust, probably toast anyway, or my meter is crap. I did find that most GM clusters of the late 70's and
early 80's used a 194 bulb, used in a holder, that twist locked on the back of the circuit board, on the cluster, just like my Mopar cluster. Not sure if bulbs are the same. The spec on this bulb(194) says
it is rated at 3.8 watts/14 volts, and is of 2 candle power. I found a Ohms Law Calculator on line: http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/ohmslaw.htm Low and behold...putting in this bulbs needed (2)
specs...basically comes out to basically 51 ohms of resistance....so..."maybe"...I messed up the rectifier bridge, by using too low a resistor. I "borrowed" our optical tach to measure pulley speed...but..I
have to paint the front of the pulley flat black...place a small piece of reflective tape on the front of it...to get the proper speed of the alternator pulley at idle, and full speed to see if I am at the
alternator's working RPM range. It shouldn't be...this darn hard!!!-LOL! When I was a kid...you could go into any auto parts store..and get all grades of "warning lights", different colors, all 12 volts
with included bulb and wiring, to mount to a panel. Even lighted switches had bulbs in them....but now...that tech is long gone. Nobody makes this stuff anymore. Everything...has gone to LED and just
doesn't off the resistance needed.

 

[Bob]

You are WAAAYYYYY overthinking this with all the fuss about lamps and resistances.

1. In your first post you stated "the back of the alternator is magnetized".

I've already told you that means the alternator is excited/the rotating field is magnetized and it should be producing output from the stator through the rectifier bridge. Any change in the lamp or resistor isn't going to make ANY difference after the point the field is getting voltage and is magnetized.

2. You wrote "I messed up the rectifier bridge, by using too low a resistor".

Not a CHANCE of that... the rectifier BRIDGE isn't even involved here. The the diode trio and circuit traces in the
VR CAN be damaged by no or very low resistance in the "excite" circuit, but even 11 Ohms would limit excite current to 1.14 Amps with the battery at 12.5 Volts, which should be safe.

3. With the rotating field magnetized, if there's REALLY no charging output, the alternator is either defective or the belt is slipping, it's as simple as that!

 

[jwitty]

Bob is right. Where are you measuring voltage? If you haven't been try it at the alt. I don't really like this test but remove the negative battery cable while it's running and see if it continues to charge. Don't do it for to long because that will max out the alt I believe.

 

[Kingmopar]

You're right Bob...sometimes my mind gets to going, especially when something is kicking my butt and after the Autozone tech stated the alternator was good, on
their test bench...I do, have my doubts on that! I was able to get the optical tach from work, and with the 2.3 inch overdrive/ smaller pulley I purchased,
alternator pulley speed is around 1250-1300 rpm @ idle...at full throttle, it is at 3200 rpm and in my mind...that should make a "good" alternator charge. I can
attest...there is NO belt slipping. I tried to tighten up the crank to fan pulley and never could get out enough slack, while trying to hold up the fan
assembly...and tighten the nut properly....so...I rigged up my cherry picker to lift the fan assembly up till the belt was tight, tighten down...then tightened up
the belt on the alternator. I also wanted a proper "warning" light...and had hard time finding one. I finally found one at
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/VCC/5100-824/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduhmRNBD0BojNnZOFNoTPTAxRN4syLeHUBY%3d that takes the T2/T3 mini bulb.

 

[Kingmopar]

I checked it from Bat terminal to ground at max RPM...and best I could get was little over 12 volts, and that's with the smaller overdrive pulley. Removal of the + post, shuts the tractor off...which I know
you are not supposed to do..but..figured what the heck. I ordered a new 3 wire alternator this morning, from Carquest...for a 76/6 cylinder Chevy truck....before going to work. I know the owner really well.
Now that Carquest and Advance have merged...he was worried that they would make him change his Tier suppliers for things like starters, alternators, etc--but so far, they haven't pushed the issue. He said if
they did that...he was going to change over and go NAPA. He, is the only parts store, in our small little town. Have a bud who loves building old Camaros...has both a 67 as well as a 69, which both are sweet
looking cars. He kept having issues with the old style OEM alternators and voltage regulators that are supplied now, my guess...via China.. mainly overcharge issues..and boiling the battery over to the point
it would swell the battery on one of them. He would manually set them to charge at 13.5 to 14 volts...and their setting would change, over time. He just finally threw in the towel..and purchased true 1 wire
for both from NAPA...and never looked back and his issues were over. He doesn't do a lot of night driving however, but the 1 wire still puts 14 volts at the battery, if he blips the throttle at startup.

 

[Kingmopar]

Thanks Jwitty and Bob....and the rest of you folks help...Bob was right...crappy alternator, even though the alternator purchased from Autozone, passed their "3
level" test after I took it back complaining it wasn't charging.... it was still a bad. Picked up a 3 wire from Carquest this morning, put on my overdrive
pulley, and installed it. At startup, it wasn't charging, but a small blip of the throttle and she want to charging right away. 14.5 volts at the battery, even
after cutting all the lights on... and would hold that charging even after dropping back down to idle. Even the LED light is working, which is after the 11 ohm
resistor going back to the switch. It does flicker a little, but is mainly out during charging.

Now...install new battery box/battery...and start working on the hood and grill.

Again!!!...Thanks for all you'alls help!!

 

[Kingmopar]

Geeze...I thought I had this issue licked, with this second alternator. I put in my new battery box so I could drill holes in the angle brackets I made for it, placing rubber sheet on the sides and
top...installed new main cables and let the tractor sit for a couple of days(Battery left hooked up, switch off). Went to fire it up today...no charge-ran fine engine wise. Alternator would not kick on via
my amp gauge. My "bulb" type of charging lights have not arrived yet...I still had the 11 ohm resistor and LED light installed. Figured it was working great before and the light went out this time after
flickering for a little..which was normal before when everything was working and charging. I checked the back of the alternator..and it was not magnetized...removed the 2 wire side plug...and there was some
clear looking "Goo" inside the metal female connectors, inside the plastic plug... but the plastic plug wasn't melted at all. I take it, I roasted another alternator. Already removed "Goo" from inside the
plug and that made no difference.

 

[jwitty]

(quoted from post at 20:15:15 12/07/17) Geeze...I thought I had this issue licked, with this second alternator. I put in my new battery box so I could drill holes in the angle brackets I made for it, placing rubber sheet on the sides and
top...installed new main cables and let the tractor sit for a couple of days(Battery left hooked up, switch off). Went to fire it up today...no charge-ran fine engine wise. Alternator would not kick on via
my amp gauge. My "bulb" type of charging lights have not arrived yet...I still had the 11 ohm resistor and LED light installed. Figured it was working great before and the light went out this time after
flickering for a little..which was normal before when everything was working and charging. I checked the back of the alternator..and it was not magnetized...removed the 2 wire side plug...and there was some
clear looking "Goo" inside the metal female connectors, inside the plastic plug... but the plastic plug wasn't melted at all. I take it, I roasted another alternator. Already removed "Goo" from inside the
plug and that made no difference.

The stuff in the connector is probably just dielectric grease. Are you getting power to the #1 wire when switch is on?

 

[Kingmopar]

Removed the 3 wired and returned to my bud at Carquest....got a true 1 wire, and is working...so far. Guess I'll use the idiot light, to let me know when the switch is turned on...