Case 450 Crawler dozer wont start...I'm stumped

[Walkman75]

About 2 weeks ago I picked up a case 450 dozer SN 3050945 188 engine. When I bought it, we fired it up and it started right away and ran for about 45 seconds and I noticed a hydraulic leak so we shut it down, It has a driveline issue so he loaded it on my trailer via a forklift. Got it home and unloaded, swapped out the leaking hydraulic hoses and a couple other things but nothing related to the engine. 2 days ago checked the oil, checked for plenty of fuel in the tank, both the fuel feeder and return line valves are open, blew air through both lines to be sure they weren't clogged, swapped fuel filters and bled the system by breaking injectors loose and looking for fuel, everything looked good. Cant get it to start, turning over fast enough, checked valves, took top off injector pump to be sure the cutoff was all the way open, took each injector out and verified they were pushing fuel by hooking them up outside the cylinders, all 4 had good streams of fuel, all cylinders seemed to be pushing good air but I don't have a way to test compression on this thing since the injectors aren't threaded. It will fire for just a couple of seconds if I hit it with about .5 sec of ether. Any ideas are welcome.

 

[LPakiz]

Do you have any smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe when you turn the engine over?
If there is no smoke, it's probably not getting fuel, for whatever reason.

 

[Walkman75]

Yes, some small puffs of smoke. When I pulled the injectors and tested them using the same pump, they were pushing fuel.

 

[bradley martin]

What is your ambient air temperature? Have you tried the preheater? (Don't use either with preheat, as I am sure you know).

 

[Walkman75]

It was about 70 degrees the day it started and it started without even a full rotation, barely touched the starter. Its been in the 40s and 50s for the past few days. Preheater doesn't work. I figured that like most diesels I have had in the past, if ether will kick it off, it will warm up and continue running. I go very lightly on the ether though. Are these particularly hard to start in the cold?

 

[John Saeli]

Yes, some small puffs of smoke. When I pulled the injectors and tested them using the same pump, they were pushing fuel.

"Small puffs of smoke"? Sounds like a fuel issue. Should be lots of smoke. The 188's are great starting diesels. When everything is right, including enough battery, a 188 will start in 5 seconds at 25 degrees F.

 

[Walkman75]

"Small puffs of smoke"? Sounds like a fuel issue. Should be lots of smoke. The 188's are great starting diesels. When everything is right, including enough battery, a 188 will start in 5 seconds at 25 degrees F.

That is what I thought until I pulled the injectors and they were firing 4 pretty heavy streams each, could the injector pump still be able to fire the injectors but not quite enough for it to start? doesn't it need to pump enough pressure to pop the injector?

 

[randyrenfro7]

This maybe dumb, but I have seen it happen when a tractor sit for awhile. Check you air intake all the way through and be sure some rodents hasn't built a nest and clogged it. Had a JD that sucked one up in the valves and hung them barely open, i.e. not much compression and wouldn't start..

 

[JOCCO]

This maybe dumb, but I have seen it happen when a tractor sit for awhile. Check you air intake all the way through and be sure some rodents hasn't built a nest and clogged it. Had a JD that sucked one up in the valves and hung them barely open, i.e. not much compression and wouldn't start..

That is a good story I had that happen on a Detroit diesel. What a mess.

 

[John Saeli]

That is what I thought until I pulled the injectors and they were firing 4 pretty heavy streams each, could the injector pump still be able to fire the injectors but not quite enough for it to start? doesn't it need to pump enough pressure to pop the injector?

There shouldn't be streams. The injector should stay closed until pressure is reached, then a pop and mist.

 

[Walkman75]

There shouldn't be streams. The injector should stay closed until pressure is reached, then a pop and mist.

Definitely not a mist. I would describe them as streams of fuel, maybe they are stuck open? All 4 are spraying about the same. What are the odds that all 4 injectors go bad at the same time? The breakdowns I have don't include a part number for the injectors, any idea what that number is? I don't mind ordering new ones, just seems really random that they all had an issue at the same time but I don't have a tester for the injectors so its something I haven't checked.

 

[Walkman75]

This maybe dumb, but I have seen it happen when a tractor sit for awhile. Check you air intake all the way through and be sure some rodents hasn't built a nest and clogged it. Had a JD that sucked one up in the valves and hung them barely open, i.e. not much compression and wouldn't start..

The air filter has been in it the hole time so I don't know how that would have happened but I will check. Thanks for the idea

 

[John Saeli]

Definitely not a mist, I would describe them as steams of fuel. All 4 are spraying about the same. what are the odds that all 4 injectors go bad at the same time?

I got a hunch "Dieseltech" will chime in on this 1. Keep an eye out.

 

[Dieseltech]

I got a hunch "Dieseltech" will chime in on this 1. Keep an eye out.

John is spot on, those injectors should POP when the pump meters the fuel TO the injectors. A "redneck injector test" I've done before when no poptester is available is to try blowing clean shop air into the injector inlet, there should be NO air/fuel come out the four orifices, if there is that injector is stuck OPEN. Same thing can be done with injectors in place on engine. Remove the injection lines and set aside from the inlets, now crank engine with the starter, there should be NO compression air blowing OUT of the injector inlet, if there is that injector is stuck open. Injection pump MIGHT have sticking rotor plungers too which will limit fuel delivery to the injectors if engine has set awhile and there's any traces of water in fuel, or Biodiesel has ever been used.

 

[Walkman75]

John is spot on, those injectors should POP when the pump meters the fuel TO the injectors. A "redneck injector test" I've done before when no poptester is available is to try blowing clean shop air into the injector inlet, there should be NO air/fuel come out the four orifices, if there is that injector is stuck OPEN. Same thing can be done with injectors in place on engine. Remove the injection lines and set aside from the inlets, now crank engine with the starter, there should be NO compression air blowing OUT of the injector inlet, if there is that injector is stuck open. Injection pump MIGHT have sticking rotor plungers too which will limit fuel delivery to the injectors if engine has set awhile and there's any traces of water in fuel, or Biodiesel has ever been u

I will try the redneck test. As far as the rotor plungers being stuck, would that require a rebuild of the pump or do you have a redneck solution to that also?

 

[Dieseltech]

I will try the redneck test. As far as the rotor plungers being stuck, would that require a rebuild of the pump or do you have a redneck solution to that also?

If rotor plungers are stuck pump needs to come apart. I see several each month for that trouble anymore.

 

[Walkman75]

"Small puffs of smoke"? Sounds like a fuel issue. Should be lots of smoke. The 188's are great starting diesels. When everything is right, including enough battery, a 188 will start in 5 seconds at 25 degrees F.

see attached pic, that is what it looks like while turning over with the starter.

 

[Walkman75]

If rotor plungers are stuck pump needs to come apart. I see several each month for that trouble anymore.

I tried the redneck test of seeing if compression was coming back out of the injectors and got nothing.

 

[Walkman75]

This maybe dumb, but I have seen it happen when a tractor sit for awhile. Check you air intake all the way through and be sure some rodents hasn't built a nest and clogged it. Had a JD that sucked one up in the valves and hung them barely open, i.e. not much compression and wouldn't start..

I took the intake apart and it was clean. was worth a shot though. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Dieseltech]

see attached pic, that is what it looks like while turning over with the starter.

That's one of three things, Too slow cranking speed, too cold for the engine to start without intake heater help, or a tired engine with low compression. Will it start with a SMALL whiff of ether? White exhaust smoke means fuel is getting into the cylinders but there's not enough heat to fire the fuel off.