COM friendly fueding page 2

[Ron Sa]

As Paul Harvey would say "page 2". The subject took a turn to pickups towing trailers with automatic trannys--having some characteristics of COM.

This reply is more objectivity about a torque converter's pros and cons so if your are sick of the subject, STOP HERE.---- Go write other posts or replies and help bury this new post and the first post on "page 6". LOL

Not to offend anyone's knowledge but torque converter slippage produces heat, not cooling, in the oil and then the hot oil burns up the auto tranny.

The only good purposes the torque converter serves in the automatic truck or car tranny is 1. good stop-n-go characteristics, 2. smooth auto shifting 3, 5-10 second passing capability, and 4. its dummy-driveable. lol. The converter's lockup clutch is used to disarm the torque converter of its thievery of engine hp and eliminate the production of heat during times of "constant speed"

Sorry, but neither Dodge or any other brand of car or truck adds slippage to the auto tranny to keep it from burning up. Fireman do not put gasoline on the fire to put it out.lol

The shrewd driver, when pulling trailers with an auto tranny, will pay attention to the lock up clutch and take measures to keep it locked up.

For serious trailering, my choice would be the HD DODGE DIESEL--would probably get a manual tranny.

But my 2000, 1/2 ton Chevy gas V8 pickup with 4 speed auto tranny was originally used mainly as a second car to haul me to my town job and to haul around farm supplies. This pickup is the right compromise for me. GM credit card points caused me to buy the Chevy.

About 2% of the time, I pull a gooseneck trailer that is 50% larger GVW than recommended for a 1/2 ton. I think we all know that trailer towing ratings are for drivers who only know to mash the gas, push on the brakes, and steer. Conservative ratings keep the average driver from being an accident looking for a place to happen. I do not wish to infer that some of you do not know how to manage your truck and an auto tranny when towing a heavy load.

When about once a year in July I haul a 50 to 60 HP tractor 500 miles from central Illinois to my brothers hay farm in Kansas, across the rolling hills of Missouri and up the long grades of the Mississippi river bluffs, I have to manage my lockup clutch in order to not burn up the tranny.

For example, attached are pics of two of the tractors that I have hauled to Kansas and back. Not both at once but different years. For an example of managing the converter's lockup clutch, it was 99 degrees when I hauled the 7500 lb 656hydro 3 miles up the long grade just east of the Mississippi river NE of Hannibal.

Managing this occasion called for first checking for Smokey the Bear and then easing up to 75mph in 3rd lockup on the flat. Then stay about half power on the gas in order to keep the converter locked up as the speed slows to about 50 mph on the grade. Pulling the tranny into 2nd at 50 mph with a little gas applied is very smooth and the engine only goes to about 3500 rpm. My tranny will lock up in 2nd by a quick back-off of the gas. I can hold 50 mph in 2nd lockup on this grade. The engine and tranny are happy doing this. Okay, so I have lost a quarter mile to any "pedal to the medal guy" on the grade.

Except for going thru towns, I manage to run 99.9% of the time with the converter locked up and the tranny stays "cool". Who cares you say!! I understand. lol

 

[Adirondack case guy]

Ron, Staying out of this one. We only attend shows within a 15 mile radius. If we can't drive our tractors we don't go. { Trucking them causes too much slippage and heat in my wallet}.We are driving 3 tractors to a local Bicentinial Celibration and parade this Sat., about a 5 mile ride. The 411B with MTA34 plow may have to drop into converter drive on one hill on the way over. The 300 RN Triple range will pull off on R"'s , and my 430T Triple range will top 30MPH+ over the hill. One of the rare times I wear my hat backwards. LOL .I will post some pics. Sunday.
Ron, This debate has been fun, And hope all who participated were able to gain something from it.
As I said before, nothing is perfrct in every application, and we all have our own opinions.
This forum has a great bunch of people who all have input on all things CASE. and I respect their views.
Loren

 

[Ron Sa]

Loren,
Thanks for all your comments. I don't remember Paul Harvey ever having a page 3 so I will consider that tidbit and end this COM debate on my part with page 2.

The discussion forums seem to have a physological purpose. I was told years ago by a church elder that people come to church to have their ears tickled so they can remain in their comfort zone. I guess in matters of religion, politics, tractor brands, car and truck brands, etc. its human nautre to want to hear only things that tickle the ears.

I prefer debates but I suspect that tickling ears does more towards perserving old tractors and I am very much in favor of that for all brands and models.

So I should remind myself that if a pic of an old COM in a fence row appears on the forum, the best way to get someone to love it enough to take it home and restore it would be to brag about its good features and say nothing about its shortcomings. I will give that some more thought.

Will watch for your pics.

Best Regards,
Ron

 

[Bret4207]

What does heat in an automatic tranny have to do with a COM? There's no auto trans in a Case with COM. Apples and spinach. Even the Op manual for the 811B says the COM should be locked except for starting and when you need to power through something or for whatever it's needed for. The heat issue is mentioned and that's what that gauge on the dash is for.

I mean no offense, but I think you're trying to justify your opinion without success. For the tractors the COM was used in, it works fine. If you don't like it, that's okay. I never found Angelina Jolie all that attractive myself and lots of people disagree with that assessment. I won't try to justify my opinion beyond saying it's just my opinion.

 

[chuck machinist]

Can u send me ur email Chuck [email protected]

 

[770guy]

Well, if this is the last of your COM postings I guess I should take the time to say... THANK YOU! I grew up running Case tractors and I still do, but since I'm a bit younger than you guys an "old" Case to me is a 70 series. I've been curious about the 30 series and especially about the COM tranny. I've learned more about it in the last week than I ever have. Your good natured debate has taught me lots. Thanks again!

 

[Ron Sa]

Bret,
The internal similarities between the auto tranny and the COM far outweigh the internal differences between the two. The two are red apples to yellow apples. What line of work are you in? If any mechanic who has troubleshooted and repaired the internals of both an automatic transmission and the COM were to read your reply, they would most likely conclude that you do not understand the internal hardware and workings of transmissions.

That is okay because most owners of cars, trucks, and tractors do not understand the internal hardware and workings of their vehicle and more important, they do not need to know. For examples, my wife drives the car but she is clueless as to how a sparkplug does its thing and that’s okay. My teenage daughter learned to drive the car but she was absolutely clueless about how any of the powertrain components functioned internally and that was okay. She knew the gearshift lever provided forward, reverse, neutral, and park. She knew the gas pedal made it accelerate, the brake pedal made it stop, and the steering wheel made the car go left or right or straight. Most drivers only know what the switches and pedals cause to happen and that’s okay.

You might consider Googling torque converter lockup and choose this website. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter

If you do not understand the list of similarities below that is okay: most people don’t. I will venture a guess that 99% of my healthcare providers would not understand what is written below. On the other hand, I don’t have any doctor skills. It appears that you and I have different skill sets and that is completely okay.

For whatever it is worth here is a list of similarities.

BOTH the auto tranny and the COM have a torque converter bolted to the engine’s flywheel.

BOTH have torque converters with torque amplifying hardware.

BOTH torque converters undesirably siphon off some of the engine’s hp and convert that hp into heat. As a side note, Nebraska test of the 811B indicates 6.02hp lost when the torque converter was used under Max power. Farmall 400 lost 0.73 hp when the TA got used under max power.

BOTH use a lock up clutch inside the torque converter

BOTH use a lock up clutch for the same purpose--- which is to convert the torque converter back and forth from a torque amplifier to a mere driveshaft.

BOTH have sets of gear ratios driven by the torque converter’s output.

BOTH use the sets of gear ratios, one set at a time, to drive the drive axle.

BOTH rely on sets of gear ratios to provide different speeds and load capabilities.

BOTH have a neutral within their set of gears.

BOTH need oil coolers to dispose of wasted engine hp when the torque converter is not functioning as a mere driveshaft.

BOTH convert the wasted engine hp into heat by causing extreme turbulence within the oil.

BOTH use a light weight oil.

BOTH have the reverse function located within their gear sets.

BOTH start the vehicle moving with the torque converter unlocked.

Other similarities could be mentions but here are some DIFFERENCES: red apples to yellow apples.

The COM has two neutrals

The COM is controlled manually

The COM has a clutch pedal

The COM used transfer gear sets and the auto tranny uses planetary gear sets.

No opinions just facts.

 

[Bret4207]

As I stated earlier, you're trying to justify your opinion and failing. The COM uses an 8 speed gear tranny with a torque converter that locks. Once the TC is locked in you have no more heat to deal with beyond what you'd have with a straight gear tranny and clutch set up.

Been wrenching on and off for 35 years BTW. I'm not going to claim to be an engineer and from the looks of things, that's a plus for me.

 

[Ron Sa]

Glad you enjoyed the comments. You seem to be an open-minded guy. The forum seems to have a wide variety of personalities that range from open-minded to close-minded. The key is to enjoy the challenge of debating with both.

There is a lot of subjects that I don't know didly squat about but my job at Cat required that I understand powertrains in great detail.

The 70 series had some nice features. I have a 1170 in my collection.

 

[320B]

You are right Ron.When I said they built slippage into it to avoid burning up the trans I should have said they did it to avoid breakage of parts.The slippage they built into it is what is causeing the transmissions and the TC's to burn up.I wonder how a Case COM trans would do behind a 600 HP Cummins in a dodge pick up.

 

[Ron Sa]

Since the biggest tractor that Case put the COM was about 65 hp, using it for 600 hp would produce a great big OOPS. Maybe that was what the O in Case O Matic stood for. Just kidding.

 

[320B]

(quoted from post at 04:46:32 06/11/12) Since the biggest tractor that Case put the COM was about 65 hp, using it for 600 hp would produce a great big OOPS. Maybe that was what the O in Case O Matic stood for. Just kidding.

Oh well,back to the drawing board. :lol: