Deere 410C cylinder liner cavitation.

[ster1]

Hi folks,
I've worked on 4 or 5 of these old 300/400 series mechanical Deeres over the years and every one of em has failed for the same reason; the user put the wrong coolant in, and the cylinder liners cavitated. For the record, it's not a design flaw of the machine. I'm quite fond of these. I'd say it's more of a design flaw of the operator. In any case, I've been working on this 401C on and off for a few months, and I finally got it running and in the shop. This, like every other, had a pinhole in a liner. If not for that one tiny hole in that one liner, I wouldn't have torn into the engine, but that's where we are. The other 3 are showing cavitation "divots", but haven't worn through yet. Just the one. All holes / divots are down low on the sleeve, below compression rings. That's why the engine actually ran fine.

If this were a customer machine, I'd be pressed for time and would just inframe the thing, and get it out the door. But this machine is mine, and I'm in no rush, so I'm in the mood to experiment.

I'm wondering if I can repair these by brazing. Grind them down / clean em up a little, fill it in and turn it back down on the lathe. I wonder if it will work. Has anyone tried this? If the holes were above the rings, I don't think it would work. Or, if the sleeves were shagged, I wouldn't bother. The one hole is right where the top (square) oring would seat. So I'd have to fill it in, turn it down to the OD it was above that "shelf", and re-cut that "shelf" where the square ring seats.

I think it's possible. What do you think?

 

[rustred]

it is very important to keep the coolant pressurized at all times with a good cap. never open the rad cap once the engine is warm or u never get the pressure back. this is too keep shock bubbles small from the cylinder firing . plus use the additive. i dont think i would do the practice sleeve repair.

 

[Roy Suomi]

I always try to incorporate a water conditioner filter somewhere in the cooling system to prevent cavitating of the coolant causing liner erosion.

 

[wore out]

I always try to incorporate a water conditioner filter somewhere in the cooling system to prevent cavitating of the coolant causing liner erosion.

I believe John Deere has long ago gone to "precharged coolant" and eliminated the additives pr coolant filters.

 

[JIM MN]

Your machine, give it a try, you have the abilities... With sleeves fixed,, I would use the John Deere Cool-Gard-II, and use the John Deere test stripes, to keep track of the acid count--SCA and DCA... Teat strips would be a yearly thing.. Your sleeves, make sure the bottom end of sleeve is clean and smooth.. Side in no oring, should be smooth and free... Oring in place,, lub with liquid soap oring and sleeve.. Push in by hand, and set in with block of wood and hammer.. Cavitation is a bad thing.. Prevent it,, you will get many hours of good work from that engine.......

 

[ster1]

it was a fun sort of academic thought exercise. I bet it would work, and probably run for years. But the engine's already apart, and the parts aren't that expensive. I'll put new parts in! Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Yes The idea of a sleeve is to throw it away. Now I have done many repairs to the block where the o-rings sit with epoxy. This is very common and fairly accepted as a good repair. It would be interesting to see if it would work in reverse but what’s it worth to you?

 

[ster1]

Yes The idea of a sleeve is to throw it away. Now I have done many repairs to the block where the o-rings sit with epoxy. This is very common and fairly accepted as a good repair. It would be interesting to see if it would work in reverse but what’s it worth to you?

When I came up with the idea, I thought it sounded like a fun thing to try. I bet it would work. But, if it didn't, I'd have to tear it back apart. If the cylinder kits were $5K, I'd definitely give it a try, but I think I can be in and out for under $1500 total. Nah. I'll play it straight this time

 

[rustred]

When I came up with the idea, I thought it sounded like a fun thing to try. I bet it would work. But, if it didn't, I'd have to tear it back apart. If the cylinder kits were $5K, I'd definitely give it a try, but I think I can be in and out for under $1500 total. Nah. I'll play it straight this time

i was more concerned about heating the sleeve during brazing, about distorting it. u can take a sleeve and squeeze it with your hands and the measurement will change when measuring them.

 

[tomstractorsandtoys]

Hi folks,
I've worked on 4 or 5 of these old 300/400 series mechanical Deeres over the years and every one of em has failed for the same reason; the user put the wrong coolant in, and the cylinder liners cavitated. For the record, it's not a design flaw of the machine. I'm quite fond of these. I'd say it's more of a design flaw of the operator. In any case, I've been working on this 401C on and off for a few months, and I finally got it running and in the shop. This, like every other, had a pinhole in a liner. If not for that one tiny hole in that one liner, I wouldn't have torn into the engine, but that's where we are. The other 3 are showing cavitation "divots", but haven't worn through yet. Just the one. All holes / divots are down low on the sleeve, below compression rings. That's why the engine actually ran fine.

If this were a customer machine, I'd be pressed for time and would just inframe the thing, and get it out the door. But this machine is mine, and I'm in no rush, so I'm in the mood to experiment.

I'm wondering if I can repair these by brazing. Grind them down / clean em up a little, fill it in and turn it back down on the lathe. I wonder if it will work. Has anyone tried this? If the holes were above the rings, I don't think it would work. Or, if the sleeves were shagged, I wouldn't bother. The one hole is right where the top (square) oring would seat. So I'd have to fill it in, turn it down to the OD it was above that "shelf", and re-cut that "shelf" where the square ring seats.

I think it's possible. What do you think?

If they are not pitted through just turn them 1/4 turn? Tom

 

[ster1]

If they are not pitted through just turn them 1/4 turn? Tom

Interesting. What does that do? Why 1/4 turn?

 

[ster1]

Just for fun, here's a pic of the cavitation. I'm holding a flashlight so the light shines through. I drew a red line pointing to it.

 

[tomstractorsandtoys]

Interesting. What does that do? Why 1/4 turn?

The ones I have torn down usually only show pitting on one side. I think it has to do with how the antifreeze flows around the sleeves.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

The ones I have torn down usually only show pitting on one side. I think it has to do with how the antifreeze flows around the sleeves.

So moving it away from the pitting that’s also on the liner flange...interesting and would get you by if you had to I suppose that might help for awhile but moving it around will only do so much it’s doing it half way. They do pit in the same spot. Never heard of anyone doing that. The other consideration always was if it’s time to replace for pitting it’s usually time for rings and the inside of the sleeves are showing some wear. Even Head gaskets are expensive enough I don’t like to risk doing it twice

 

[ster1]

So moving it away from the pitting that’s also on the liner flange...interesting and would get you by if you had to I suppose that might help for awhile but moving it around will only do so much it’s doing it half way. They do pit in the same spot. Never heard of anyone doing that. The other consideration always was if it’s time to replace for pitting it’s usually time for rings and the inside of the sleeves are showing some wear. Even Head gaskets are expensive enough I don’t like to risk doing it twice

I never thought of that either, the pitting is always in the same spot, on the injection pump side not the cam side, I believe. I'm still fighting with getting cyl 1 out. Before I do, I'll score a little reference mark on the sleeve and see what side it's happening on. I do know that it's almost always fairly low on the sleeve. I've never seen them more than about 1/2 way up.

Down toward the bottom of the sleeves, the flow is not so great. The coolant enters the cooling jacket about half way up the sleeves, circulates around and exits through the head. I think I have that right, or am I backwards on that? Anyway, it doesn't matter for this particular point I was trying to make, and that is the bottom of the sleeves don't experience as much flow as the top portions do. System pressure exists down there, but flow - not so much. Or rather, not as much as exists higher up. I wonder why then, the position of the holes is, at least in my experience, anyways more or less in the same place?

What's different at the bottom of the sleeve vs higher up? Temperature and flow, for sure. There is possibly more movement at the bottom of the sleeve because it's only stuck in there with a couple orings, and not clamped under the head. Combustion forces are less down there. I'd imagine there's a little more side - loading because it's closer to the crank (possibly contributing to a little more movement).

I always assumed cavitation was a function of coolant additive, flow and pressure. In other words you had to make sure you had the right stuff in there, that the cap, thermostat and pump was good to keep the right flow and pressure, and all would be well. Maybe there's more going on in there though.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

I never thought of that either, the pitting is always in the same spot, on the injection pump side not the cam side, I believe. I'm still fighting with getting cyl 1 out. Before I do, I'll score a little reference mark on the sleeve and see what side it's happening on. I do know that it's almost always fairly low on the sleeve. I've never seen them more than about 1/2 way up.

Down toward the bottom of the sleeves, the flow is not so great. The coolant enters the cooling jacket about half way up the sleeves, circulates around and exits through the head. I think I have that right, or am I backwards on that? Anyway, it doesn't matter for this particular point I was trying to make, and that is the bottom of the sleeves don't experience as much flow as the top portions do. System pressure exists down there, but flow - not so much. Or rather, not as much as exists higher up. I wonder why then, the position of the holes is, at least in my experience, anyways more or less in the same place?

What's different at the bottom of the sleeve vs higher up? Temperature and flow, for sure. There is possibly more movement at the bottom of the sleeve because it's only stuck in there with a couple orings, and not clamped under the head. Combustion forces are less down there. I'd imagine there's a little more side - loading because it's closer to the crank (possibly contributing to a little more movement).

I always assumed cavitation was a function of coolant additive, flow and pressure. In other words you had to make sure you had the right stuff in there, that the cap, thermostat and pump was good to keep the right flow and pressure, and all would be well. Maybe there's more going on in there though.

I always wondered if contaminates had something to do with it too. Scraped a lot of sand and gritty material off those areas of the block above where the o-rings sit. Its imploding there against that rubber ring for some reason and wether it’s coolant that’s lost it’s condition the rubber o-ring shape or the microscopic rocks that get added by me refilling I don’t know that it makes a bit of difference as to what I need to do to help it or when it comes time to repair it. I’ve switch to premixed coolant for that reason and it was enough on the 4020 that has never left here and obviously that pile of sand came from what we are doing to convince dad to switch to the easy way of doing coolant out of the jug too even if it costs more. at least my 30 foot 60 year old well it just isn’t clean enough here. One could filter it with an rv garden hose filter maybe and be better off. He was going to town and getting distilled water for awhile but I think he decided it wasn’t worth the hassle. On the car that won’t last that long mix away but if the 4020 has been here since 1964...

 

[used red MN]

If you do this you better have rigid hone to run in the ID after brazing to help round out the distortion the localized heating will create. I wonder if a nickel SMAW (arc) rod might be a better choice to limit heat input, preheat to 500F or so and peen afterwards. I am no welder, I have just heard this is a good approach to welding on cast steel.

 

[fdt860]

You do not need the whole kit. Just buy sleeves and rings. Pistons are rarely out of tolerance and are the most expensive part.

 

[ster1]

If you do this you better have rigid hone to run in the ID after brazing to help round out the distortion the localized heating will create. I wonder if a nickel SMAW (arc) rod might be a better choice to limit heat input, preheat to 500F or so and peen afterwards. I am no welder, I have just heard this is a good approach to welding on cast steel.

As part of this little experiment. I brazed a brake cylinder and didn't distort it at all. The nickel rods are not only ridiculously expensive, a stick approach would put quite a bit more heat into the part, minimum 2200*. Brazing happens at about 1000. Of course I could goof it and heat up the part way too much, but once you get to about 1800* the filler starts to boil off, and the seam looks different.

I'm not going to do it anyway. This was more of an academic discussion.

 

[RickieBlue]

The cavitation will only show up on the thrust side of the piston as it is powered down in the power stroke. I am surprised no one mentioned that as the general consensus here is pretty good. Never heard about the pressure in the cooling system helping to prevent cavitation though....I know pressure in a hydraulic system doesn't seem to help cavitation in pumps.