Engine stuck on 63 cub with new pistons and valves

[rustred]

Takes a big , tough "man" to cyber bully. How about giving it a rest,most of us are tired of it .........

instead of concentrating on me, maybe throw in your 5 cents to this problem and we see what u have to say. i hate reading copy cat posts, and thats a long way from cyber bullying. thank you very much seams ur just propping up ur buddy here. the picture tells the story, take note. can u see the problem ?

 

[used red MN]

I'm not certain if I'm correct or if it's even possible to turn the pistons that way. Any thoughts and suggestions are as always appreciated.

Never been in a Cub motor but I think IH numbered the rods by a stamp on both the rod and rod cap parting line. These numbers in most cases were on the camshaft side of the engine. To be assembled correctly the numbers on the rods should all be on the same side The pistons obviously should be installed so the parts protruding above the gasket surface have a relief area in the head. Not sure if there is clearance to rotate the rod with it disconnected from crank with the piston at the top and the crank throw turned down. There will be some resistance to the ring grooves turning in the rings, but it can probably be done. With the head off anyway it is probably just as easy to pop them out. Check for proper rod to piston orientation. Re-lube the rings put the ring compressor on them and poke them back in. Maybe Grandpa Love or somebody can confirm the rods are numbered on Cub engines as I first described. Or maybe even you can confirm this.

 

[Jim Becker]

Never been in a Cub motor but I think IH numbered the rods by a stamp on both the rod and rod cap parting line. These numbers in most cases were on the camshaft side of the engine. To be assembled correctly the numbers on the rods should all be on the same side The pistons obviously should be installed so the parts protruding above the gasket surface have a relief area in the head. Not sure if there is clearance to rotate the rod with it disconnected from crank with the piston at the top and the crank throw turned down. There will be some resistance to the ring grooves turning in the rings, but it can probably be done. With the head off anyway it is probably just as easy to pop them out. Check for proper rod to piston orientation. Re-lube the rings put the ring compressor on them and poke them back in. Maybe Grandpa Love or somebody can confirm the rods are numbered on Cub engines as I first described. Or maybe even you can confirm this.

Yes, they are numbered both on the rod and on the cap. numbers are 1 through 4 starting at the front (radiator) end of the engine. The stamped numbers go towards the camshaft.

If the old pistons were flat top, the new ones need to be checked for clearance from the head, even after installing the right way. Some early heads need just a bit of material removed to get clearance. That probably won't be a problem with a '63 head.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, they helped me find a logical starting place. I began by removing the starter then moved on to the distributor no luck turning the engin. I decided to remove the head and after removing the necessary attached parts I began loosening the bolts and periodically testing the crank. When the bolts were all about half out I tested the crank and the head at piston 4 popped up. I finished removing the head and it appears that the dome on the new pistons is hitting the head. Hopefully it's another rookie mistake and I should have oriented the pistons so the dome is in the indented side of the head.
I'm not certain if I'm correct or if it's even possible to turn the pistons that way. Any thoughts and suggestions are as always appreciated. Pal

Given that the head came up on #4, the pistons in cylinders #3 and #4 are in backwards.

What was the logic in putting two pistons in one way, and two in the other way? Or was it a simple oversight?

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

I've almost never seen step pistons used in a flat head but it could be possible. You will need to pull each piston off the rod at the wrist pin to rotate the piston. I would then set the head on no nuts/bolts and spin the engine over to see if the head moves from being hit by the pistons

That's all you can get for Cubs anymore, far as I know.

 

[thdrduck]

Also understand that a cub has a difficult time priming the oil pump. The oil pump is driven from the rear of the cam shaft, and is above the oil level in the pan. To assure oil pump prime, the gallery can be pumped full of oil using a trigger squirt oil can and a small hose into an oil gallery plug near the filter. It can take 2 or more fillings of the oilcan to have a noticable pressure increase of the trigger of the can. Jim

This little fact ended up costing me a lot.

 

[mccormicksw4]

instead of concentrating on me, maybe throw in your 5 cents to this problem and we see what u have to say. i hate reading copy cat posts, and thats a long way from cyber bullying. thank you very much seams ur just propping up ur buddy here. the picture tells the story, take note. can u see the problem ?

you are a bully Sir

 

[Paul 300 U]

Given that the head came up on #4, the pistons in cylinders #3 and #4 are in backwards.

What was the logic in putting two pistons in one way, and two in the other way? Or was it a simple oversight?

Barnyard engineering. I guess you'd say "simple oversight" but that would imply I understood that it was a possibility to begin with. This is my first time through anything like this. Logically you'd assume I know the head has an indentation and you'd also assume I'd know that the new dome pistons will come further out of the block then the old ones, but both of those assumptions would be incorrect!!
It's one those items no one ever mentioned in the videos I've watched and now that I think about it, I don't believe I ever came across anyone else putting then in their tractor. I'll begin to to disassemble and getting the pistons correctly oriented. Thanks! Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

Yes, they are numbered both on the rod and on the cap. numbers are 1 through 4 starting at the front (radiator) end of the engine. The stamped numbers go towards the camshaft.

If the old pistons were flat top, the new ones need to be checked for clearance from the head, even after installing the right way. Some early heads need just a bit of material removed to get clearance. That probably won't be a problem with a '63 head.

Jim. My response to barnyard engineering explains how I made the mistake! I appreciate the advice on clearance and we'll follow up accordingly. Thanks Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

My apologies to Paul 300 U, I missed the new pistons in your first post here in this thread or it didn't register, apparently. Still, used or new pistons, two of them appear to be in backwards and it is possible some are on the rods wrong. Rod orientation as well as piston orientation needs to be checked.

No worries ME. Yep. I didn't realize their was a "backwards and a forward". Law of averages kicked in and I got two correct! Thanks Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

I've almost never seen step pistons used in a flat head but it could be possible. You will need to pull each piston off the rod at the wrist pin to rotate the piston. I would then set the head on no nuts/bolts and spin the engine over to see if the head moves from being hit by the pistons

Old. Thanks for the follow up. I will be proceeding as you stated. Thanks. Paul

 

[Jim.ME]

No worries ME. Yep. I didn't realize their was a "backwards and a forward". Law of averages kicked in and I got two correct! Thanks Paul

You need to check to see that all 4 pistons are on the rods such that the rods and pistons are both in the correct orientation. As Jim Becker posted, the numbers on the rod and its matching cap face towards the cam shaft. With the rod facing that way you need to be sure the raised area of the piston faces the valves to be in the relief area of the head.

 

[used red MN]

Barnyard engineering. I guess you'd say "simple oversight" but that would imply I understood that it was a possibility to begin with. This is my first time through anything like this. Logically you'd assume I know the head has an indentation and you'd also assume I'd know that the new dome pistons will come further out of the block then the old ones, but both of those assumptions would be incorrect!!
It's one those items no one ever mentioned in the videos I've watched and now that I think about it, I don't believe I ever came across anyone else putting then in their tractor. I'll begin to to disassemble and getting the pistons correctly oriented. Thanks! Paul

Not to tear you apart but my guess is there was some mention in the video of checking for markings that would indicate an orientation of the piston towards the front of the engine. In fact I should have probably covered that in my reply 42. Sometimes low budget overseas parts can skip over including these details. It usually is a notch, or stamped in dash or arrow, or an F. It could be around the area that the piston pin comes through to the skirt of the pistons and even inside the piston on the inner skirt. It is obvious the quality of the video, and the thoroughness of its author all play into what it includes and what gets left out.

 

[Rich'sToys]

He's gotten it figured out. No need to keep beating up on him.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Maybe I'm stupid but with the small amount of cut out in the top of the piston and the large amount of piston over lap so to speak in the pistons to head. I don't see how it would matter whether the pistons were in one way or the other. Maybe it is just the pictures he has posted up and the angle or reflected light. With 3/4 of the pistong coming up under the flat of the head and about a 1/4 of the piston section being cut out or stepped downward seems like looking at it to me it will just change the position of what hits the piston on the head. Not saying they are not in backwards just that there will be so much piston to head over lap.

 

[Jim.ME]

Maybe I'm stupid but with the small amount of cut out in the top of the piston and the large amount of piston over lap so to speak in the pistons to head. I don't see how it would matter whether the pistons were in one way or the other. Maybe it is just the pictures he has posted up and the angle or reflected light. With 3/4 of the pistong coming up under the flat of the head and about a 1/4 of the piston section being cut out or stepped downward seems like looking at it to me it will just change the position of what hits the piston on the head. Not saying they are not in backwards just that there will be so much piston to head over lap.

The pistons are stepped up, not down, thus the step up needs to be in the relieved area of the head on the valve side.

 

[used red MN]

Maybe it is just the pictures he has posted up and the angle or reflected light.

The pistons are stepped up, not down, thus the step up needs to be in the relieved area of the head on the valve side.

Maybe what Jim explained helped your visual perception of the pistons. In this photo the raised part of the piston circled in red will hit the head in the red circled area. When turned around the red bumps on the piston will go up into the blue circle on the head. Open his photo that has the number ending in 558 and enlarge it if needed. It looks to me like pistons 1 & 4 are at top dead center and my visual assessment says if the piston was turned 180 in the bore he would already be making hay.

 

[Paul 300 U]

Not to tear you apart but my guess is there was some mention in the video of checking for markings that would indicate an orientation of the piston towards the front of the engine. In fact I should have probably covered that in my reply 42. Sometimes low budget overseas parts can skip over including these details. It usually is a notch, or stamped in dash or arrow, or an F. It could be around the area that the piston pin comes through to the skirt of the pistons and even inside the piston on the inner skirt. It is obvious the quality of the video, and the thoroughness of its author all play into what it includes and what gets left out.

Used Red
One of the problems is that I never actually saw a video with the pop up pistons ( or poppet, I've heard them referred to by several different names). I only saw rebuilds using standard pistons. I did see a video where a person doing a refresh on a cub and who also sells parts, mentioned that they offer the pop up pistons for a few extra horse power. That's where I got the idea. I actually bought the pistons somewhere else. No directions whatsoever. Mine you I did make sure the rods (arms) are in the correct cylinder and are installed in the correct direction along with the caps. Just no idea that the pistons needed to go in one direction. I'm just happy I didn't break anything and I'm good with all the feedback. Thanks

 

[Paul 300 U]

He's gotten it figured out. No need to keep beating up on him.

Thanks Rich's toys! I appreciate the sentiment! I'm good though. Came from a large family with 4 older brothers so a little constructive criticism doesn't bother me. On the balance I've gotten a tremendous amount of helpful advice from these guys. Thanks again and have a great new year! Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

Maybe I'm stupid but with the small amount of cut out in the top of the piston and the large amount of piston over lap so to speak in the pistons to head. I don't see how it would matter whether the pistons were in one way or the other. Maybe it is just the pictures he has posted up and the angle or reflected light. With 3/4 of the pistong coming up under the flat of the head and about a 1/4 of the piston section being cut out or stepped downward seems like looking at it to me it will just change the position of what hits the piston on the head. Not saying they are not in backwards just that there will be so much piston to head over lap.

Caterpillar guy. Not really doing this before I guess I assumed that that the raised part of the piston was sized to reach to the top of the cylinder, not beyond it. I'm now wondering what else I might have missed! Only one way to find out I guess. Thanks. Paul