Ford 5000 CAV Pump & Starting Troubles

[Moyfully]

Hello,

I have a recently new to me 1973 Ford 5000. It had been running well with no issues after changing out all fluids and oil and fuel filters. In an effort to fix some fuel leaks around the injector lines, I took out the old lines, cleaned around the injectors, and replaced with a set from Yesterday’s Tractors. They were the identical shape as the old ones but did not seem to seal well and I noticed a small difference in the size of the round part at each end of each hose. I put the old lines back in but am having issues getting the tractor to start after trying for the past two afternoons to get all air out. I figured it must be a bleeding issue but am not so sure any more. I’ve gone through every forum post and video that I could find but haven’t been able to find the trick to get it to start.

The battery is a month old and has been fully topped up and measures correct voltage. The fuel valve is opened up all of the way. Zero smoke comes out when I try to start. With the bleed screw out of the pump when I crank, it sprays about 18 inches of fuel that looks pretty bubble free. When that is closed and the 4 lines up top are loosened I can get 3 of them to bubble out a little bit of air bubbles and fuel. The one closest to the driver doesn’t seem to be getting much of anything. The holes in that banjo bolt seem to line up correctly for fuel to be getting delivered.

Some reading I have done in manuals and YT indicates that there may be an excess fuel button I can depress and possible a way to manually prime the pump to get the air out. I don’t see any sort of button on the pump or a lever. Photos attached of my pump.

When cranking, everything sounds good for 10 seconds or so but after a couple of tries (waiting a few minutes in between each) the timing becomes significantly slower.

Any ideas or thoughts would be so greatly appreciated.

 

[Fordfarmer]

Hello,

I have a recently new to me 1973 Ford 5000. It had been running well with no issues after changing out all fluids and oil and fuel filters. In an effort to fix some fuel leaks around the injector lines, I took out the old lines, cleaned around the injectors, and replaced with a set from Yesterday’s Tractors. They were the identical shape as the old ones but did not seem to seal well and I noticed a small difference in the size of the round part at each end of each hose. I put the old lines back in but am having issues getting the tractor to start after trying for the past two afternoons to get all air out. I figured it must be a bleeding issue but am not so sure any more. I’ve gone through every forum post and video that I could find but haven’t been able to find the trick to get it to start.

The battery is a month old and has been fully topped up and measures correct voltage. The fuel valve is opened up all of the way. Zero smoke comes out when I try to start. With the bleed screw out of the pump when I crank, it sprays about 18 inches of fuel that looks pretty bubble free. When that is closed and the 4 lines up top are loosened I can get 3 of them to bubble out a little bit of air bubbles and fuel. The one closest to the driver doesn’t seem to be getting much of anything. The holes in that banjo bolt seem to line up correctly for fuel to be getting delivered.

Some reading I have done in manuals and YT indicates that there may be an excess fuel button I can depress and possible a way to manually prime the pump to get the air out. I don’t see any sort of button on the pump or a lever. Photos attached of my pump.

When cranking, everything sounds good for 10 seconds or so but after a couple of tries (waiting a few minutes in between each) the timing becomes significantly slower.

Any ideas or thoughts would be so greatly appreciated.

Excess fuel button was only on the inline pumps. The rotary pumps are harder to bleed, in my experience. Do you have someone that can help you pull-stsrt it?

 

[Moyfully]

Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately, not for a week or so, so I am hoping to be able to do this myself (with help from the great YT community).

What is particularly odd to me about this issue is that I had some trouble bleeding the lines immediately after replacing the fuel filter earlier this month but did have smoke pretty quickly that time. No such smoke this time and the tank is nearly 100% full.

 

[Fordfarmer]

Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately, not for a week or so, so I am hoping to be able to do this myself (with help from the great YT community).

What is particularly odd to me about this issue is that I had some trouble bleeding the lines immediately after replacing the fuel filter earlier this month but did have smoke pretty quickly that time. No such smoke this time and the tank is nearly 100% full.

Check to make sure the shut-off cable is returning the arm on the pump fully forward when it's pushed in.
When opening the bleeder on the pump (or elsewhere), just loosen it a turn or two, don't take it out.
If you're still getting bubbles at the injectors, there's still air in the system. and it's not going to start. Are you loosening the nut on the end of the injector lines, or the banjo bolt (return line) at the injectors? Needs to be the nut on the injector lines (and only slightly loosened).

 

[Moyfully]

Thank you. I just tried giving it a final start for the night before seeing your response and on a (reading full) battery didn’t get a full speed start with the fan not moving at it’s typical speed. Hoping the starter isn’t shot and will give it a fresh try in the morning after a night of charging.

I will be sure to check the shut off cable movement. Copy on the bleeder. I’ve been loosening at the end of the line, not on the lower return lines.

Thanks very much for your help. Here’s hoping tomorrow gets her running.

 

[Check Break]

With the bleed screw out of the pump when I crank, it sprays about 18 inches of fuel that looks pretty bubble free. When that is closed and the 4 lines up top are loosened I can get 3 of them to bubble out a little bit of air bubbles and fuel.

A stream of fuel 18" long out of the pump bleed screw indicates you have a fuel delivery problem to the injection pump. It's not getting enough fuel. Start looking for problems from the tank shut off valve through the transfer pump on the back of the IP.

 

[sotxbill]

A stream of fuel 18" long out of the pump bleed screw indicates you have a fuel delivery problem to the injection pump. It's not getting enough fuel. Start looking for problems from the tank shut off valve through the transfer pump on the back of the IP.

Say what……….?……

 

[Dieseltech]

Ether the metering valve is stuck in the off position AND/OR the rotor plungers are stuck is the usual cause of no fuel to the injectors. At least the rotor is not seized since you have good flow at the bleed screw while cranking engine, the vane pump is doing it's job. HOPEFULLY the cam ring/shoes/rollers are not damaged from water in fuel.

 

[Moyfully]

Thanks for all of these responses. I spent this afternoon trying again. I was able to get a good amount of smoke out on my first crank of the day after taking apart and cleaning the parts attached to the end of the shut-off cable on the pump. It does have an oddity where it moves up or down and clicks into a position when pushed or lightly pulled vertically. Not sure if that is supposed to be the case or not.

I don’t have remotely enough experience to remark on the length of the fuel stream when the bleeder screw is removed, but I do know that when I changed the fuel filter and bled the system a few weeks ago that it was roughly that length and did start and run well.

I took a look at the exterior of the metering valve on the pump and it does move fully when I adjust the throttle. I am hesitant to take the pump apart with limited experience to check the innards but may have to come to that if I don’t get anywhere tomorrow. The tractor has been under cover since I purchased it and I didn’t have much water at all in the filters when I changed them out a couple of weeks ago.

One other thing I did notice today is that I had to wait hours in between cranking tries. I haven’t tried cranking for more than 10-15 seconds at a time and had previously been able to crank at a high speed for longer the last time I bled the lines. The battery is just a few weeks old. I also tried jump starting with a decent result on the first short jump with quickly diminishing returns for the next 2 short tries. When reading about potential battery issues I did notice that many people run 4DLT batteries and I currently have an Interstate MTP-65HD on there (replaced the old equivalent when I purchased the tractor last month). I have used two different relatively new chargers rated for the battery but can’t seem to get it any higher than ~12.5V on my multimeter. I’m not sure if that could be related to the issue or if I’m just grabbing at strings.

Thanks again for the thoughts and help for this newbie.

 

[Moyfully]

Good morning.

Just tried cranking for the first time this morning. Barely got anything moving cranking it. Replaced battery connections yesterday and they are tight. Also cleaned the connections on the other ends of the connections from the battery.

It read 12.05V after charging overnight. Tried jumping and got a similar result.

Could this just be a bad (month old) battery?

Thanks very much.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

12.05v on a battery fresh off the charger is a problem. A full charged 12v battery should be 12.4-12.8v.

 

[Dieseltech]

Don't guess, put a load test meter on the battery and see how it responds. I've had two NEW batteries taken back for exchange recently because they were faulty.

 

[Moyfully]

Good afternoon.

Seems like it was most likely the few week old Interstate battery. I picked up a comparable one from a different brand this afternoon and wired it up. Was able to get my normal starting speed and was able to bleed out at least 3 of the 4 injector lines that I hadn’t been able to do previously on the Interstate battery. Checked it with a load test meter and it was around 9.5-10v. Going to give her a bit to charge up fully again and then hoping that will do the trick.

I do have a tiny leak I’ve noticed coming from the metering valve area (I think it has been leaking from there for a while) but am going to try to get her started and some hogging before looking into that.

 

[Moyfully]

Happy Easter.

Unfortunately not looking like it was just the battery. After trying to start this morning after a full charge overnight I looked at each fuel injection line and noticed the line closest to the dashboard and second lowest on the fuel pump (I think #4, the one with the fewest turns) isn’t getting any fuel at all. Photo attached with it circled in red. No fuel drips out when I remove the banjo bolt. Could something be stuck in the pump that is causing it to not receive any fuel?

Thank you.

 

[Dieseltech]

Happy Easter.

Unfortunately not looking like it was just the battery. After trying to start this morning after a full charge overnight I looked at each fuel injection line and noticed the line closest to the dashboard and second lowest on the fuel pump (I think #4, the one with the fewest turns) isn’t getting any fuel at all. Photo attached with it circled in red. No fuel drips out when I remove the banjo bolt. Could something be stuck in the pump that is causing it to not receive any fuel?

Thank you.

What brand fuel filters are on it? If NAPA/WIX did you make the common mistake of placing an O ring in the filter top OUTER groove just inside the base sealing O ring lip? That groove is the fuel INLET passage and must NOT be blocked with an extra O ring. All four injector line nuts should be loose one turn each during the air bleeding while cranking engine. Don't try one at a time like some fellows want to do. That injection pump has one charging cylinder for all four injectors, sounds like it's still air logged, or the pump has internal parts inside and needs to come off for repair.

 

[Moyfully]

Thank you, Dieseltech. I did confirm that I don’t have an extra upper o-ring in there on my WIX filter. It did run well right after I changed that filter a few weeks ago.

I took off the top of the pump and checked to see if anything was stuck in there and everything moved easily. Went ahead and replaced the old sealing gasket around it as it looked pretty close to original.

When trying again this afternoon once the battery has charged up more I’ll be sure to follow your recommendation on the injector line nuts. Thanks very much.

 

[Moyfully]

Removed the left side of the pump and this is clearly out of whack. Now watching the Bundy Bears strip down video to try to figure out how to correct.

Edit: never mind. Figured it would have been symmetrical.

Edit 2: Going to remove the pump from the tractor and try to give it the full treatment. Fuel just isn’t getting to the injectors at this point.

 

[Destroked 450]

Do yourself a favor and send the pump to Dieseltech or a reputable pump shop near you