Hydra Power Woes

[farmersamm]

Machined the groove for the gasket. Something more than I bargained for. I've never done any trepanning. It fit, the day progressed, nobody came along to tell me that all was lost. A good day overall.............alway is when something fits. Happy dance.

Bit of an over the top grind...........it didn't need to be that severe..........but it it works...............I ain't complainin'. Be more sophisticated next time around ROFLMAO.

DOC was controlled by a soft stop.

The gasket sits in a .120 deep groove. Using a soft stop allows you to plunge to depth, without going over.

As usual...........it's turned into more work than I thought it would. I usually get slammed for that.

The initial cuts were skim cuts...........to establish the OD for the gasket. I don't have a DRO, so it's all an eyeball thing. You make a few false cuts, then zero in on what you actually need. Manual machining I guess. The trick is to make locational cuts, scratch cuts..........just touch off. If you're wrong, you can adjust, and not ruin your tolerances. Better to make a scratch in the wrong location, than make a piece of scrap. Leave enough for corrections.

 

[tom upton]

You obviosly know what you are doing thats for sure! Not too many guys have a Noga mag base in there home shops that I noticed in your one pic. I also like messing about on a lathe and Mill, but if its very involved I take it to my Son who runs a CNC shop. Machining has come a long way since I started in it 46 years ago. Back then a high tech machine would have been one of the turret Lathes I used to run, that we ended up selling for scrap. The pic is the new Mill turn when it arrived at the shop with my son in front of it. Close to a Million bucks but it cut the cost of some of our common products by an astronomical amount. The part you made would probably take my young Lad half an hour or less to draw/program and 3 or 4 minutes to machine! I am going to sound like I am bragging a bit here, but he is a down right genius when it comes to machining . As you know there is more to it than meets the eye, cnc or manual. Any chance you could post a pic of dimensioned drawing/sketch for that piece in case I want to make one?

 

[farmersamm]

It's not bragging............it's your boy.

That machine is almost bigger than our house.

 

[farmersamm]

Heat's been intense here. Indices up around 107 daily. Not a lot getting done.

Needed to do some face grooving(trepanning). Ground a bit, mostly incorrectly............too much clearance on ID side.........but is what it is. Do better next time. Did the job. All I do is one-offs.............so it's just a a fast thought process...........ya get what ya get.

The gasket groove turned out nicely. A note about this groove.................If you're gonna make one of these.......make sure you use a gasket from a company you figure will be around for the future. You'll need to replace the gasket sometime. These come off the filter. There's a ton of filters that interchange, but the gasket specs are all different for each manufacturer.

The gasket, installed in the groove, was indicated to verify that it was done correctly. Beats having oil running all over the ground. If the gasket isn't planar..........tain't gonna seal.

Now, we have to do a countersink. Scratch a witness mark, then do the rest of the setup. If you have to a radiused groove, you have to grind a tool............if you're just widening a face, from a centered hole........it just takes a boring bar. Think about the form of a circle. It's not rocket science. Geometry.

 

[farmersamm]

So..................we's running towards the chuck, but also needing to stop the cutter on the outside radius of the circle. No DRO on this side of the planet.............so gotta do the best you can do. The dial indicator give a rough estimate of where you are, but aren't totally accurate. Starrett's, or Mitotoyo's might be........but these ain't. Still gotta verify with a reliable depth micrometer

Make the scratch cut, and go to town....................rock on.

Done deal.
.

 

[farmersamm]

The standpipe hole has to be threaded to fit any standpipe out there.............................Means you have to make sure you're actually threading at a 30* angle. That 29.5* angle crap is well.................crap. You're dealing with a form tool that cuts 30*., why would you wanna do a half degree difference. It's all a wives tale. Anyways.................I indicate my compound to make sure it's correct. We're talking a formed thread here. not morning biscuits.

That plug gauge we made earlier, that conformed to standards................it's time for it to do its work.

End of the day.......................................in tolerance for a 3/4-16 thread. Was a good day.

Rollin' down the highway, cookin' with gas, five by five......................it's golden. And it took a lot of work to get it to this point. I'm grateful I didn't mess anything up so far.

For Mr. Upton............I don't believe a drawing is needed. Just grab a filter, and a caliper. Pretty self explanatory. Simple cut, and paste. I'd gladly put up a drawing, but for something like this.............I don't use a drawing.

 

[farmersamm]

For you guys that see something you gotta gotta gotta have...............................................

Some time ago, after yearning for one for years.........................I scored a brand new, unused height gauge. I always wanted one. I use it for measuring features on gears, shafts, etc. Simple, easy way to do things.

BUT THESE FELLAS HAVE EVEN MORE USES.

Due to the small diameter of the hole that needed to be threaded..............I was forced to use a 3/8 boring bar. Grind a round piece of HSS for a bit...........and square it all with the axis of the lathe. The height gauge for the win!!

If you have a back light, you can set anything up. Handy lil' sucker.

 

[farmersamm]

Got the cap cut, ground, and put on an arbor...............all it needs is turning. Called it a day. At my age, I don't particularly care to work in a container where the thermometer pegged 100*, and the dew point is around 70*. I'll leave that for the young guys I once was. Nothing on this Earth is that important. Besides............we have storms tonite.........not gonna get any field work done tomorrow.

 

[farmersamm]

If you don't know fluid dynamics, you're better off copying an existing design. Not worth it to puff up your chest, and proclaim to the world that you know everything that there is to know. Most likely.............you don't.

 

[farmersamm]

Turned the top cap, cut off a bolt, and plug welded it to the cap. The wet stuff you see is anti spatter spray to keep BB's off of the machined shoulder.

Drilled, and tapped, a hole for the pipe nipple that will be used to attach the pressure gauge hose. I had a bit of trouble tapping the hole. The only tap available, without making a run to Tulsa, was a carbon steel tap. Not as smooth(I prefer HSS taps), and boogered up a section of thread. Not enough to matter, but still............................... It's also possible that there was a bad spot in the steel. I'm using A-36 plate for this job. Sometimes there's pockets in this stuff.

More of my segmented 7018 welds. I never could get good at rolling my wrist, so I do it in segments.

Each segment is backstepped into the prior segment. This eliminates cold starts.

Now we have full Connect The Dots ROFLMAO.

Because I'm doing a series of short welds on the entire job, there are multiple restrikes. Regular DC 7018 does not like restrikes. The AC version of the rod is excellent for multiple restrikes. It's not quite as smooth as a regular DC rod due to the alternating current. The flux has some sort of arc stabilizers that calm it down a bit...........all in all..........it's ok stuff to use. Just hold it tight in there, no long arcs. It runs with porosity if you run an excessive arc length...........shove it in there, and drag it.

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A done deal. Was too late in the day to slap it on the tranny. Do it in the morning. This heat is killing me.
Ruining the test port plug sure made for a lot of drama

 

[farmersamm]

Pressure test with TYPE A fluid 10psi at idle.......35psi at 2000rpm.

Pressure test with MERCON-DEXRON fluid.................................. I changed to this fluid after the Type A this morning.

At idle. And when the clutch circuit is operated to attempt to shift into high range. I would presume that lube circuit pressure should stay within specs under all shift conditions. This does not look good.

At 2000rpm

The oil plug when the oil was changed. Not encouraging, but considering the last change was around 10yrs ago, maybe more........maybe not too bad.

The Type A fluid performs better pressure wise.....which didn't surprise me. Modern ATF's are like water.

Now the question is whether to park it. Or throw some hydraulic oil in it to see if it picks up pressure.

My best guess is that either the control spool is leaking, or one of the relief valves is leaking. The leaks are preventing pressure from building.

To belay any doubts.........the pressure tester was bled to remove air for both fluid tests.

 

[farmersamm]

I'm not thrilled about hydraulic oil. It's a non detergent oil which won't hold particles in suspension in order for a filter to be effective........or at least more effective. Then you get into shear rates, and all that other BS.

At this point I'm facing a viscosity problem probably caused by a mechanical problem.............not heat or any other red herrings. I'm probably trying to force oil through an orifice that's too large. Or forcing oil through an orifice that SHOULDN'T exist.

I'm not buying hay this year.......................I'll sell out before I pay for hay. Been there done that.

The big question is VISCOSITY sufficient to get through the hay season.

The transmission is partially toast. That I know. The high pressure circuit is no longer functional.........disabling direct drive. The reduction drive is still functional because it runs on a sprag clutch. My main concern is the ability to operate the transmission without causing further damage.
Because the clutch pack isn't in the picture anymore, I just need something to lube the bearings, and sprag clutch.

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SAE detergent oil will hold contaminants in suspension so they can be filtered. This isn't a new concept when it comes to gear, and hydraulic systems. I own a Hesston 1010, and 1014, Hydro Swing MOCO. Both are spec'd with SAE 20w..........which is no longer available. Agco tech folks felt that a 10-30 detergent motor oil(SAE) would serve. And it has..................for many many years. Both MOCO's have a filtration system, hence the detergent oil requirement.

Matter of fact..................many gear applications spec motor oil. I run old Road Ranger transmissions that specifically specify 50w oil.........not standard gear oil. Same same with my NP-203 transfer case on the old Power Wagon............it takes 10-30. On the flip side.........my 5spd in the F-150 specs ATF.......needs thin oil for the internal worm gear pumps, and possibly tighter tolerances(not 100% sure, but it makes sense). Might even have to do with the yellow metals in the synchros.

I need approximately 40-60hrs run time on this transmission. If a straight weight SAE motor oil can't be sourced(it's tough to find around here), I'll run some pressure tests on a couple of multi weight oils to see which will hold pressure to supply the gears, bearings, and sprag clutch.

This whole oil thing is a slippery slope. Once you start looking outside manufacturers specs, you're opening a possible can of worms.

 

[farmersamm]

BTW............I'm guessing at run hours. This year I'm switching to a disc mower because all of my hay fields haven't been cut in about 2+ years while dealing with the myriad of equipment problems. Lot of saplings now, and other crap. A sickle mower can't handle it. So.........the stinkin' disc mower, which I'm sure will take more time. Less cut width, and having to go back and rake the stuff once it's cut.

Had a guy cut for me one year, and it was a disaster. Idiot cut it down to the dirt.........which it appears like is typical with a disc mower. I always leave a minimum of 4"-6" stubble/ground cover. Never had a weed problem. Now I do.

Modified the new disc mower to cut higher.

I'm now set up for a minimum 4" cut height...............not taking into account tilting the cutter bed if I need more.

 

[random_farmhick]

I think you are way overthinking the oil in it, detergent/non detergent... Late 55 series or early whites, switched to a hytran style of oil in the 3 speeds, which are very similar to a 2 speed. Dads 1750 with a 2 speed hydra power has been running a hydraulic/transmission oil in it for close to 30 years or more without a problem. Honestly, with how much screwing around you have done building you tester, messing with everything, you could have had the hydropower out, apart, fixed, and reinstalled running. I've gone down that rabbit hole of trying to do every last little thing HOPING that it can be fixed without disassembly, but 99 times out of 100 it doesn't work, because you already known the answer... I've learned to trust my gut, it usually doesn't fail me(realize I said usually, not never )

 

[farmersamm]

I think you are way overthinking the oil in it, detergent/non detergent... Late 55 series or early whites, switched to a hytran style of oil in the 3 speeds, which are very similar to a 2 speed. Dads 1750 with a 2 speed hydra power has been running a hydraulic/transmission oil in it for close to 30 years or more without a problem. Honestly, with how much screwing around you have done building you tester, messing with everything, you could have had the hydropower out, apart, fixed, and reinstalled running. I've gone down that rabbit hole of trying to do every last little thing HOPING that it can be fixed without disassembly, but 99 times out of 100 it doesn't work, because you already known the answer... I've learned to trust my gut, it usually doesn't fail me(realize I said usually, not never )

I'd say you're right....................if you haven't seen our shop. Last thing I want to do is pull a motor. But it looks like that's the direction it's going.

BTW.........10-30 is holding pressure at temp. About 20 at idle.......28 at speed. As it warms up 7 at idle.........24 at speed. I believe it's gonna get run tomorrow. I'll be lucky to get that motor out by Xmas.

 

[farmersamm]

We were looking into at least getting a concrete pad, but the Redi Mix outfit can't get their truck into the yard, and turn around. We'd either have to use a loader, and run the mud around the yard(your aggregate would separate).............or have a pumper in to pump it about 300 feet.

To come in from the pasture side is a no go. The borrow ditch is too steep.

Anyways.................I was just about set. Had everything in order to build a gantry crane....................and the loader died. Needs a motor. Could have pulled the motor with the crane built for the loader...........but that's all water under the bridge.

 

[TerryfromSWIowa]

How do you figure the aggregate would separate? they run wheelbarrow and buggy's all the time moving crete.

 

[farmersamm]

You're probably right. I guess it would depend on the slump.

 

[carolina oliver]

BTW............I'm guessing at run hours. This year I'm switching to a disc mower because all of my hay fields haven't been cut in about 2+ years while dealing with the myriad of equipment problems. Lot of saplings now, and other crap. A sickle mower can't handle it. So.........the stinkin' disc mower, which I'm sure will take more time. Less cut width, and having to go back and rake the stuff once it's cut.

Had a guy cut for me one year, and it was a disaster. Idiot cut it down to the dirt.........which it appears like is typical with a disc mower. I always leave a minimum of 4"-6" stubble/ground cover. Never had a weed problem. Now I do.

Modified the new disc mower to cut higher.

View attachment 83419

View attachment 83420

I'm now set up for a minimum 4" cut height...............not taking into account tilting the cutter bed if I need more.

You have a Kuhn made for JD mower. FYI Kuhn offered optional high lift skid shoes, reasonably priced 10 yrs ago. You are missing the tail disc that goes on the end. Helped move end material inwards bought 1 ft. Oil: Straight 80-90 is fine. Be sure to measure when cold, been standing up over night.. Gearbox is separate so check it also.

 

[farmersamm]

You have a Kuhn made for JD mower. FYI Kuhn offered optional high lift skid shoes, reasonably priced 10 yrs ago. You are missing the tail disc that goes on the end. Helped move end material inwards bought 1 ft. Oil: Straight 80-90 is fine. Be sure to measure when cold, been standing up over night.. Gearbox is separate so check it also.

The mower is the other shade of green(huge grin)

Find out how it runs today. This is the end of 2yrs worth of heartache. What could go wrong? LOL

Krone has high cut shoes available, but it's a Kings ransom to buy them. All I have in it is a bit of plate, and some time.

I had a bit of a question when it came to cutter bed oil. Krone calls for 80w-90. Local dealers call out 85w-140. They say it gets hotter in Oklahoma than it does in Germany. Well...................ok...........I guess I can see the logic. Sorta.........

So, I called a dealer down in Texas(where it actually does get HOTTER than up here in OK, and definitely hotter than Europe). They say 90w, and nothing else.

If I get the concept correctly.................the gear train is lubricated by what amounts to a mist generated by the gears flinging the oil around the inside of the bed. I don't want to monkey around, and start putting heavier oil in there. Matter of fact..........I believe you can ruin one of these by overfilling them. That tells you how they function.

Anyways, if I can get this thing across the creek today without tipping over...........we's in business